The CEO 180 Day Playbook | LSI USA '25

Joe Mullings  0:05  
So thanks everybody for coming in this morning. I know you had a lot of choices, and this panel is especially pointed towards the larger the cohort that's going to be here, the CEOs who are either at startups, or it's your first one, or it's your fifth one, and we had discussed this, and it's your 180 day playbook, and not necessarily very first 180 days as a CEO, but 180 days from let's start today and what we're trying to take off on. So let me first start by allowing each of the gentlemen to share their background so you have some relevance and awe about what they've accomplished in their career so far to date. So Bernie, would you open us up? 

Bernie Haffey  0:49  
Thanks, Joe and thanks LSI for having us here. My background includes having run two venture backed companies in the device space, one in ophthalmology, one in endoscopic suturing, currently on three boards, one in oncology, one in spine, and another. That's a CRO and I also have a thriving advisory practice that where we work primarily with newly appointed CEOs, yeah,

Cason Kynes  1:24  
and I'm Cason Kynes. I'm a investor and an operator, a partner at Ajax Health. Ajax has a hybrid investing and operating model, so I've been at Ajax now for six years. Worked very closely with Duke rollin, who's the CEO and founder at Ajax, but I've also served as very involved in our Cordis acquisition, and associated with that acquisition, ramping up an accelerator that we've established to introduce innovation in that company. And then, more recently, for last two years, I served as the chief operating officer of a business called cortex, which was one of our portfolio companies that we just sold to Boston Scientific a couple months ago.

Hanson Gifford  2:10  
Hanson Gifford, I've been in the medical device space 42 years now, all of it in startup device companies, starting an interventional cardiology went to Germany and started a company there could talk about what not to do in your first 180 days. Then in Randy at hartport Less misacritic surgery, and for the past 26 years, have run the foundry where we're inventing new things and starting companies in a variety of spaces. I'm also a partner light stone ventures

Joe Mullings  2:44  
stunning. So in sessions like this, I like to open up with this thoughtful quote that I wish I had penned, but I think it's very appropriate for this one. I'm glad I paid so little attention to the good advice. Had I abided by it, I might have been saved from some of my most valuable mistakes. So I've asked our panel to make sure that while we talk about the wins we had if we had a mulligan or do over, what would we have thought about in setting up our leadership and our organizations? So Bernie, lemme just open up with you first when we think about 180 day playbook as a CEO, how do you level set? What is your baseline reference that you think of most as you give consulting insights to your clients?

Bernie Haffey  3:35  
Well, Joe, I think there are four things and all, each of which are fundamental. First is establishing a long range vision and set of goals that are aspirational for the company, not a sort of a one year plan, but three to five years, where are we going to be and how great it's going to be when we get there? That's kind of a keystone. I think, as you build a system, helps guide decisions and actions towards that aspirational future state. Second is culture. You know, how must we behave along the way and establishing that in a in a stretch fashion? Right? Behaviors that aren't necessarily easy, but require a reach. Third, I think, is a vital few set of priorities. And fourth is a common language or methodology for execution,

Joe Mullings  4:34  
And when we think about that list of things that we want to accomplish, Hanson, I'll throw this to you as a fellow engineer, do you ever think about that list being too long? Do we Pareto that list? How do we approach that list of things to accomplish? 

Hanson Gifford  4:47  
Yeah, you try to boil it down. As Barney was saying, the vital few the establishing clear communication with the team is important. And if you have a list of 10 things, you might as well not have a list. It's a very few things that you can really get the team focused on. And so defining those is super important, and and defining your those few with your board as well. You're managing in both directions, you have to establish that communication with the board, establish an understanding with each of the board members, and make sure that there's alignment there.

Joe Mullings  5:30  
Cason with the cortex, successful outcome. Take us through on the same talking point, how you got from here to there.

Cason Kynes  5:37  
Yeah, the prioritization of trade offs was a big part of the narrative of that company. There was a meeting that we had after we had raised $90 million financing at the end of 2023 and not too long after that, we had a strategy meeting where we were getting together a team. We had a team in Munich that was driving the software component, a team in Santa Clara that was driving the hardware component. We brought all the leaders of the business into our room, and in preparation for that meeting, I was engaging with all the functional leaders, trying to gather their perspectives of what should those vital few priorities be for this organization. And I realized there were a lot of different perspectives across the organization, and we weren't on the same page in terms of what was going to optimize the pathway to value creation for the business, and what we ended up doing. I remember realizing like, how do we we need to do something to get this organization on the same page, and it was about two nights before that strategy meeting, I sat down with a blank Word document up on my computer, and I wrote three questions, what do we have? What do we need, and what should we do? And I took an initial stab at writing a four page memo that tried to answer each of those questions from the best of my perspective, ended up sending that out to the team prior to that meeting and asking everybody to read this with a mind of like, intense criticism, like, find out where I'm wrong, come up with a different perspectives. What facts do I have wrong? What are the the errors in my assumptions, or my my deductions that I'm making from those assumptions, and we had a really productive meeting that that did really impact the direction of that organization. I think it's, it's very similar to the exercise that you mentioned, in terms of identifying those vital few priorities and getting a team oriented around those objectives.

Joe Mullings  7:46  
Hanson, I want to throw this back to you. So if we think about the CEOs in this room, and especially first time CEOs, a lot of times, you get that head nod, because you had as an individual, had taken authority, risen to a challenge a number of times in your career, usually on an individual basis, and executed. And that's usually like the best player sometimes gets thrown up to be the coach. But when you move into this startup world, you've got to have this adoptive, adaptive challenge that you have to take on, but your team has to now solve the problems. And so as you coach these CEOs through, what are the watch outs or the guardrails of not being an opera singer, me, me, me, but them, them, them, and that solution is in the team.

Hanson Gifford  8:34  
Yeah, well, you're alluding to a key point, which is that when you get to the point where you're running the company, even if it's a relatively small company, you can't do everything. You can't make all the decisions and just let people execute. First of all, there's just not enough time of the day. Second of all, you're really going to sub optimize your outcomes, because you're only using your mind and everyone's going to sit there and look for you to to give the answers. We've all been in meetings, in every setting, like, especially like when you're out pitching to raise money, where within three minutes, you can see that everybody in the room. There might be five people from that venture fund in the room, but they're all looking to one person to make a decision. And that's not how you want to run a company. So being willing to empower people to make decisions, to to force them to think it through, and certainly to help them to provide them with your your thoughts and so on, but, but let them create that, and you're managing them, not not doing their work for them. That's a, it's a really tough transition, because you've already been doing it. You can do that job faster than they can, and you can do that job faster they can, and you can definitely you can't do them all faster than they can, and it's not going to work. So that's a, that's a challenge. Of growth as a leader, broadly, but it's super important as you come into own a company.

Joe Mullings  10:07  
Hanson used the term force the decision. Bernie, you were a little sort of humble with some of the leadership, sort of consigliere you've done with guys like Palmisano, with right and with EB three and forcing a decision in your system, you force decisions in a forced voting environment. Share that with the group here. 

Bernie Haffey  10:30  
Sure, we use force voting on priorities for the customer, for the employee and and for the shareholder. And it usually starts out as a brainstorm.

Joe Mullings  10:47  
And this is, could be the whole company, depending on big it is? 

Bernie Haffey  10:51  
Yeah, it could be the whole company. We did this work at Cordis. I think the first meeting was 65 executives globally, 40 of whom were in the room, and 20 or so were on Zoom. And we brainstormed each of those three areas. We had some data and information, we had customer survey, we had employee survey, and we we understood kind of where the shareholder wanted to go. And then you bring the management team together, you say, okay, you know, what are all the what are all the things that we can do to drive improve customer satisfaction, customer experience, employee engagement and shareholder value? And those lists typically end up being, you know, 20 or 30 different things. And then, and then you give, you give each participant 10 votes electronically, and it forces to your earlier term, a Pareto, you know, a list of sort of, the 20% of the items that are going to close 80% of the gap, and that is where you find, at least initially, your vital few priorities. It doesn't mean you're not going to do the other 80% it just means that you're going to put your best people, best resources on those most important things. But it's a you know, to what Hanson was saying, it's a team sport. It's not the CEO in the corner of the building decide. And in fact, in many cases, the CEO would come to the same decision on on, on his or her own. It's bringing everybody along for that journey with you.

Joe Mullings  12:39  
Cason when you when you successfully moved cortex through the transaction. Did you experience a similar or a process you went through as well? 

Cason Kynes  12:49  
Yeah, I would say another thing that we think about us the one of the primary roles as a CEO is to is to hold the pen on the narrative of a company. And it's one thing to have a vision. It's one thing to have a strategy. It's another thing to be able to communicate that vision and strategy in a really compelling way. I think, as human beings, be we, you know, an investor who might be thinking about investing in your company, an employee you're trying to hire and retain, or or a, you know, business development leader at a potential buyer, like we as human beings are compelled by stories and and narratives. But it's to to Bernie's point, it's not a you don't develop that in isolation, by yourself. As a CEO, you have to solicit the input you need. If you're a non technical CEO, you're going to need the input of the technical team. If you're a non clinical CEO, you're going to need input of clinical folks on your team to piece a narrative together. But in order for a narrative to be compelling, it can't be convoluted, it has to be concise and understandable, and it has to be compelling and be able to be delivered with conviction. I think that that narrative is another thing that can be a forcing function for a CEO to figure out what the vital priorities ought to be, because if, if you can't tell a compelling narrative about your company, you're not gonna be able to raise capital, and you're not gonna be able to sell a company, and you're also not gonna be able to recruit and retain great people to be a part of that, that narrative. And so at cortex, that was a big part of what we did when we we had brought a couple companies together that had a backstory to them, and now we're creating a new story for that collective organization, and in order to help figure out what those vital priorities ought to be, one of the exercises we went through was getting rid of every slide we had ever created and starting a new slide deck from scratch, in conjunction with people who had been there and had perspectives that could contribute to the development. Of that narrative and and constructing that narrative together in a very iterative process, soliciting input from a lot of people who are involved in the company. 

Joe Mullings  15:09  
So there's probably 80% of this audience here has got a slide deck that's probably dated legacy and needs the and I could hear the giggles right, that needs to be re imagined and rethought. One for fundraising, one for attracting talent and one for being highly focused on those vital few. Hanson, what would be your guidance be? Let's just start there as a takeaway. What would your guidance be to everybody sitting out here today, when they look at their deck, run it through that gauntlet, what should they be rethinking on something they just made minor adjustments with over the last three years, likely.

Hanson Gifford  15:48  
Well, what is, was Casey McGlynn taught me just always keep reducing risk and adding value. Okay, that's that's the job of the CEO. That's the goal. And what are the key risks? There are a million things you could be doing. What stands between this company, where it is today, and this company, where everybody gets it? I mean, in your own mind, you say, why doesn't everybody get it? That this company is brilliant and and incredibly valuable. And every acquirer out there should buy us tomorrow, if they were smart, you know what? What is the key risk or the key additional value that's going to make that happen? And then focus like a laser on that? I think that's what I would do. 

Joe Mullings  16:39  
Bernie,

Bernie Haffey  16:42  
can you repeat the question? Joe,

Joe Mullings  16:44  
sure. So everybody here's got the fruitcake that's been passed holiday to holiday back and forth in form of their slide deck. If you had to say, Listen, go back to your slide deck today. Have the courage to reimagine what it should look like. What should they be thinking about like hands that had just passed along. What should they be starting just the top two or three things on that deck, if it's for M and A, if it's for investors or to track talent.

Bernie Haffey  17:11  
So for the for the pitch deck, specifically the pitch deck, yeah, I agree that, you know, it shouldn't be iterative. You shouldn't take what you know, in the context of this panel, a newly pointed CEO should start with a blank piece of paper, right?

Hanson Gifford  17:27  
If you're a new CEO, you're not there, because everything's going right. 

Bernie Haffey  17:30  
That's right. And we just, we did this recently with on target labs, with Bill. Bill Peters is in the audience here, and Bill, we started with a blank sheet of paper, right? We didn't assume anything. We didn't carry over the past, you know, the past message, and created a new, fresh message and set of priorities and and so far, it's going pretty well with with that, with that new approach, it's invigorating for the employees that have been there to see, you know, clarity and and direction and, and to your point, it helps with, with, with bringing new people on as well. You know, new employees on helps me customers and and clearly, with, with new with new investors. So, so I would just, you know, reiterate, start with a clean sheet. Use your people, use, use, you know, the best data and information that you can gather. And then put everybody in a room for a day, day and a half, two days and and. And start from scratch.

Joe Mullings  18:43  
 Cason,

Cason Kynes  18:45  
yeah, I would say you should take a stab at in one single slide, even if it's a somewhat dense, wordy slide, being able to articulate the narrative of the company if you can't condense that narrative down into a syllogism, like a very clear set of propositions that add up to a very compelling conclusion. You haven't tightened that narrative enough. The other piece of guidance, I would say, is you have to think about who your audience is, and think about why they should care, like, what is the psychological motivation that's going to get them to lean in to the narrative that you're telling? And often, you can think of, you know, fear and greed as as motivators for a lot of you know, things that we're trying to do, whether it's raising money or selling a company, you have to be able to understand what is your audience really going to care about, and what's going to what's going to make them what's going to earn you the right to their attention for the next 30 minutes or an hour, or however long you're speaking to them. And you have to start, start with that. So I would just emphasize clarity, being. Concise, and then starting with what matters to your audience,

Joe Mullings  20:05  
given the, Hansen I'll go back to you, given the forced voting, if you will, the forced decision making in a room. If we've got that many critical thinkers, we're hoping there's a lot of conflict, healthy conflict, in those discussions, but eventually you come out with those vital few, and then you've got to create the CEO has this massive responsibility of creating trust across the organization. After people come out, and some of those people will have a little bit of a chip on their shoulder, their agenda is not moving forward, and others will be happy. So how does that CEO at that moment in time start creating trust as a priority for their job description?

Hanson Gifford  20:41  
Fascinating? You know, challenge. And, you know, in I spent a lot of time in the invention and R and D phase, where we do a lot of brainstorming, and it's super important to make sure everybody feels empowered and that everybody can speak their mind, and that you can not only come up with good ideas, but tell other people why their ideas are bad, and that's immediately challenging. They feel threatened. You're telling them their baby's ugly. And no, it's about how we can make that better, not not saying you're wrong, I'm right. So creating that kind of a discussion format is essential in this setting, to where everybody can speak up, everybody can challenge each other, but everybody needs to know and feel that it is about the good of the company, not about, you know, establishing some sort of competitive hierarchy about who's who's the top dog in the company, and the the top dog in the company, the CEO, can play a key role there, in being, you know, hopefully, one of the quieter voices in the room, and letting everyone else speak up, and letting everyone tell you know, me why I'm wrong, and that sets the tone. You know, if I can do that and not feel threatened, then everyone else can do the same, and then you're gonna have a really constructive discussion.

Joe Mullings  22:10  
Cason, how does the leader regulate that distress in an organization on a daily basis? Right? Because doing that sounds simple with that radical candor approach, but as the leader, how do you regulate that distress and hopefully over time it dissipates?

Cason Kynes  22:24  
Yeah, I think one of the ways to do that is instilling and this is something that I think Duke does exceptionally well in the Ajax world, is creating a mentality within an organization of constant, perpetual forward motion. So I think what can get exhausting for an organization is they get bogged down in, you know, decision making process or disagreement, but go through that process, hash out the details, come to a decision, and then move. And I think people get excited and motivated by forward motion, and that requires a bias to action. It requires, you know, being able to avoid the, you know, paralysis of analysis issue that can, I think, plague a lot of organizations. So that's, I think that's one way to mitigate that is like, make sure that it doesn't linger and fester and then create momentum again, as after you've made a decision, and push the organization that direction.

Joe Mullings  23:34  
Bernie, one of the principles that you have brought to the system, and we use it at TMG, and I know a lot of other organizations have is if you can make a decision and it's close enough make it and go yes, but then it requires a very rapid cycle, yes, take us through that. I found that fascinating. As a leader, over 40 years of leading an organization, it was almost a 'a-ha' moment for me. 

Bernie Haffey  23:57  
Yeah, well, I use a system, and I coach and teach a system that, you know, starts with that brainstorm, and then you you form teams, right, diverse, cross functional, cross geography, teams on those most important things in the end. And the idea is to go insanely fast to get to a plan in 30 days and start executing on day 31 that requires a mindset of not letting perfect get in the way of good enough, right? So if I'm going to do a sprint plan, it's not going to in 30 days, it's probably not going to be a perfect plan. It's going to be a good enough plan, but a good enough plan implemented. I think Patton said this immediately and violently is better than a perfect plan implemented, you know, six months later, right? So because at day 31 you're getting, you're benefiting from. Um execution on the right thing, and then having a system that's closed loop, right, that has a continuous improvement aspect built in that also helps, I think, with with with folks that you know maybe don't see their item on, on the vital few you can you can communicate to those folks that look on this, on this cycle for these next six months, or whatever the these are the thing. These are the boulders we're going to crush, and then we're going to refresh this. And if your item is, is, is important enough, it'll bubble up, right? So it not letting perfect get away. Good enough is only good in a system that's closed loop, right? Otherwise, it's probably not a good idea. 

Joe Mullings  25:52  
And then that's really interesting. And Cason, I want your point on this, because it plays. The two of you are chatting back and forth when I start to decide on a point here, but then I start to get activity and data, I start to circumambulate around that point and have a totally different perspective whether it was on might a vital, vital few or not. And so have you seen that occur in your experience?

Cason Kynes  26:12  
Yeah. So I mean, we were talking about trade offs previously, and you know, as we think about strategy as an important, you know, responsibility of the CEO is to control the strategy of a company, obviously, in conjunction with the team, I think a definition of strategy is the prioritization of trade offs that are effectively tuned to market dynamics or other inputs that are external to the organization. And so it's being able to adapt to changing dynamics that are external to your organization, to re evaluate the priorities that you have to make, to orient the resources and capabilities of your organization to value creation that has to be iterative. And we saw that at cortex to a significant degree, like electrophysiology, is a market that is super dynamic right now, with the emergence of PFA as a new therapeutic modality that's taking a lot of market share. And so that the needs of acquirers and what they're looking for is all very dynamic. And that was the opera, the environment we were operating in. And so a conversation with strategic, with a strategic that tells you something new about the market dynamics that has to flow back into the strategy formation as you're thinking about what the priorities ought to be,

Joe Mullings  27:35  
Hanson your thoughts on that. 

Hanson Gifford  27:38  
Well, thesis of this talk is the first six months. But unfortunately, it goes on forever, even if you do have exactly the right Vital Few and the team is executed, everything's great. I'll just mention perhaps the most famous piece of Silicon Valley business advice, which is Andy Grove saying only the Paranoid Survive, you know. So okay, you think everything's going right. What isn't going right? What? How? How could this be challenged, etc. 

Joe Mullings  28:10  
Let's jump the board meetings. We've got 12 minutes left, and I want to leave a couple minutes open for Q A let's jump the board meetings and Bernie, you and I have a conversation outside the door from you just came back from Hungary from a consulting gig, and when you start to focus on the vital few, and there's only a handful of deliverables and everything else is a secondary or tertiary matter, what should board meetings look like? Should they be taking up a week of your time to prep for a board meeting, then locking a bunch of people in a room that is usually a one way discussion out of fear from the CEO's perspective, and then running through a deck that, again, probably should be refreshed. So what should the perfect board meeting look like?

Bernie Haffey  29:01  
Well, it, it should be a lean process in my in my view, I one of the biggest wastes that, that, that I see in my journeys, having worked with over over 60 organizations in this in this space, is companies that spend, you know, a month building their board decks, you know, a whole month out of every quarter doing something that that that really doesn't add much value to the customer, the employee, and neither, you Know, to the shareholder. When, when I in the companies I ran, I would say, we have a board meeting this afternoon, push a button and go to the one page strategic plan, which we call a success tree, and then with the vital few priorities, and then how we doing against those priorities in in a very straightforward. Board process, kind of view, and then, and then the you always have other business, fundraising, new hires. Maybe there's IP issues or competitive issues or other things that that, that you want to discuss, but it shouldn't be. You know, preparing for a board meeting should not be a job for lots of people in your organization, and it shouldn't matter even you know how perfect the slides look and whether you even need a whole deck of slides to have an effective board meeting. I think, I think effective board meetings are more about discussion, decision making, resource allocation, and finally, you know, alignment, right, bringing the shareholder into the strategy, I think that was mentioned by my peers. And so having that, having that meeting, to align on on the priorities and giving the shareholder through the board, you know, a voice in in those priorities, I think is, is, is, is part of that exercise. So it's not sort of a one way send. We've got 50 slides we want to send. It's more of a conversation. 

Joe Mullings  31:19  
Hanson,

Hanson Gifford  31:21  
yeah, yeah, I've seen CEOs who communicate on a weekly basis with the board. You know, here's what happened this week, here's the new crisis, here's a key issue I want us all to be thinking about. And so if you're doing that on such a regular basis, you know, nobody needs to be brought back up to speed. You know, what is this company making again? There's some, you know, shocking loss of knowledge. If all you do is talk every three months.

Joe Mullings  31:52  
Cason, 

Cason Kynes  31:54  
yeah, wearing, wearing the investor hat, I would say one of the biggest mistakes we see CEOs at times make with respect to board meetings, is, you'll have a two hour board meeting, and they'll mark march through every detail, across every function, and then squeeze into the last five minutes the topics of fundraising, like, when are they going to run out of money, and how are they going to raise more money? And then, like, strategic engagement and anything related to an exit. The way we try to run our board meetings for our companies is recognize that you know, an investor who invests as your company, as a CEO, a number one job before anything else that I think we've spoken about, you know, defining the vision, thinking about the strategy, building a team, driving pace with an organization. All of those things are subservient to the number one job, which is like, keep the company solvent. Like, make sure you have cash so the company can survive and pursue an exit to get a return for your shareholders. We start with that, like, how much cash do we have? Where is it going to get us? What are the milestones we're going to get to that? What are the what's the value creation associated with those things? What are the conversations we've had with potential buyers? Start with that, and then to the extent that there's questions that your board has about the details of your business, answer those in the backup or the follow up, or as those questions get asked, but answer the most pressing question that an investor is going to have up front. And I think that process actually puts people at ease, even if there is bad news, because they know you're thinking about it and you're stressed about it and that you're caring about their interests, it actually helps board meetings function a lot more smoothly and effectively, even in a scenario where there's bad news, because I think a board member will feel anxiety in a scenario where they think the fundamental issue is being neglected, and that's that you don't want your board member to be raising the fundamental issue about your business,

Joe Mullings  33:57  
it's a danger zone. And then final question, before we open up for a short Q, a so you know, Michael Jordan had a series of coaches. Tiger had a series of coaches. Phelps had a series of coaches. Board members are not coaches for a number of reasons, from a legal liability perspective as well as, you know, Sunshine perspective, why, after venture organization may have paid large six figures to bring in a CEO, huge salary. Do not today, very few get a coach outside the board for that CEO who has that sort of experience, the talent is out there in order to help coach them through these moments and for the emerging market and emerging leadership. Hanson, I'll start with you on this one. Give me a minute answer on why have we not moved to that yet with when every other great performer has had a series ofthem, 

Hanson Gifford  34:54  
it's great question. I think just because people haven't thought of it, I think in many cases, especially when. It's a first time CEO or a physician, CEO or so on. You do have an executive chair who is a board member, but also that CEO's coach who's communicating on a nearly daily basis. Help them learn the ropes, learn the company, learn the strategic framework, etc. So I think that is often the case, and I think it it can work very well, especially in a smaller startup company,

Joe Mullings  35:32  
but even, but even Michael Jordan was the top of his game, he still had a coach. So I got you on, the first time CEO and the transitioning physician. But Cason, your thoughts on it? Why not? Yeah, I think Ajax do that. 

Cason Kynes  35:46  
Well, I would say I, you know, I've been in a very fortunate position, because I've gotten to work so closely with duper lane, who's got such a an incredible track record in this space. I think I've learned everything that I know about thinking about building businesses and defining strategy from him, but I would say only 10% of what I've learned from him has come from words that he's actually said to me. I think 90% has come from me watching him lead other organizations and sell companies and structure deals. And that's why I think for any CEO, whether you have a coach or you don't have a coach, you need to understand who you can imitate, but you need to imitate people in a dynamic way, because Duke has a very different personality than than I have, and if I tried to do exactly what Duke did, it would feel inauthentic and fake, and it wouldn't work for me, but I need to understand how to take his personality and his approach and then adapt it and tailor it to my personality in a particular scenario. And it's not just Duke, but I think Scott Drake at Cordis very different personality, different leadership style, but very effective. And I've got a ton to learn from him, and so I think that would be my guidance for any any first time CEO is understand Who are you imitating, and not just imitate them directly, but tailor that imitation to your own personality and your own set of capabilities. And the last thing I would say is, at Ajax, we devour this podcast called How to take over the world, which just goes through like historical figures and what they did to be impactful. And it's because that same desire to like, imitate success and understand who's done something really impactful in the world, what did they do to make that materialize? And what principles can we draw from that experience and apply to our own specific situations that we're in or that our companies are in. So I think that process of imitation is really important for a CEO.

Joe Mullings  37:49  
Bernie, you've coached a lot of CEOs and had,

Bernie Haffey  37:51  
yeah, I have, and I somewhat different way of thinking, but I think teams need coaches, right? And, and, you know, the CEO is part of that, that team. And, you know, think about team sports, right? In addition to having a coach, the coach always has a system, right? If you think about Nick Saban, or any other, you know, successful coach. They're coaching a system and and that, I think, is, I think, an effective role for a coach, rather than sort of one on one with the CEO, but engaging the leadership team. 

Joe Mullings  38:36  
You always say, a team with a system that are B players Well, nine out of 10 times beat a team of a players who don't have a system,

Bernie Haffey  38:45  
absolutely. Yeah, plenty of examples of that. And in business and in sport, if you have a great system, that's a competitive advantage, whether that's, you know, on the gridiron, like case and background, or I'm on a nice rink or in business, right? You can, you can a team of B players in an a system are going to beat a team of a players that are playing as individuals.

Joe Mullings  39:16  
We've got a minute left. I wanted to leave a little bit more time. But any questions for the talent and experience on please come to come to the microphone. Real quick. Ben, if you have a question following this one up, stay in the line behind the microphone please. 

Audience Question  39:31  
Hi. My name is Astrid McNeil. Is very nice to meet you. Thank you for your time. Quick question. You said, I think it was you, Hanson, who said you're not a new CEO, because everything's going swimmingly. And then you said, Bernie, get get input from the team that's there. But how at the beginning do you find out you're the new CEO with an existing legacy team? How do you figure out there's probably not just the CEO that's a problem. How would you quickly find out who are your P. People that are your A players versus your B players, and how do you deal with that?

Hanson Gifford  40:05  
That's a whole area we didn't dive into in only hands, but making sure, as Bernie taught me, you have the right people on the bus to really take the company where it needs to go. So understanding the strategic plan with the team and with the board and with your own research through other sources, etc. And then, in order to execute that plan, who do you really need and getting getting those people as quickly as possible?

Joe Mullings  40:38  
Yeah. Bernie, 

Bernie Haffey  40:39  
yeah. I think it's, it's a, it's a great question. There's a lot to that one, I think, is, you know, are they a fit with the culture I mentioned, sir, you know, the vision, and then, you know, kind of values, behaviors. Are they a fit there? Usually, you see, you know, the your your stars kind of emerge, I think, in those early weeks and months and in the role, by using, you know, by leveraging a process that's that's visible, you can see pretty quickly who can carry Water and who just, kind of, you know, doesn't and and so those are, those are opportunities to, you know, I think look for the people that you want to promote and develop, and look for those people that you want to sort of UN promote or move away from. I think Hanson said it well in our prep call, we we, we we hire too fast, and we fire too slow. And I think a newly appointed CEO really needs to look at that. You know, if the if the players aren't a fit, don't wait. Don't take six months to make those decisions. Don't let perfect you're never going to have perfect information on that. But anyway, hopefully that partially answers that question.

Joe Mullings  42:03  
So I want to be respectful that I'm here. We're at zero now, please a hand for, um, our...