How Can Effective Communication Design Unlock Investment and Customers? | LSI USA '25

Kirk Patel  0:05  
Well, thank you everyone for joining on this workshop. Special thanks to LSI team for making this happen. Today we're going to be talking about how effective communication can unlock investments and customers. Quick intro on us. I'm Kirk, my partner, Harry, couldn't make it, unfortunately. We've been doing this for five years. We've worked with over 700 presentations, helping early stage companies and later stage companies with everything presentation design, from pitch decks, sales decks, board degs, all sorts of presentations. And we've seen kind of first hand, how good presentation, design can really make or break a deal. So today, I'll continue with a little bit about us and then dive into the agenda. But our mission here is to transform complex ideas into really easy to understand visuals. That's going to be the theme of all the slides that I cover. Our team is made up of three different skill sets, and it requires multiple capabilities to really put a compelling presentation together. So you need illustration artists, you need presentation designers, and then you need animation and motion artist. So that's really our team. We've worked across the board, right from Medtech, medical device, biotech and variety of healthcare VCs helping them with their fund decks and vor decks. And here just some of our customers, in terms of VCs, some large companies, as well as very early stage and smaller companies. And then we have a few couple of companies this year that are presenting at LSI, Charles from Mayo, one Elizabeth from some of x, and then M cell from last year that we helped with their presentation. And there's really three things that a customer will look for. You know, if you're looking for the right partner to work with you and with these early stage companies, it's often quality, which comes with experience. So making sure that you're working with the right partner and they have the experience to help you transform your message. Two is speed, everything it was due yesterday. So making sure that you have the right partner who understands timeline and deadlines is important. And obviously, per obviously pricing, because all companies have tight budgets, especially their early stage, many of them are bootstrapped, so having the right type of pricing in place is also very important. Today's agenda for this workshop really have three things I'm going to cover. First, I'm going to talk about the importance of presentation design and what poor design can potentially cost you. The second is compile the list of common mistakes that we're just going to go through, and just to kind of give you an idea. So when you look at the next presentation you put together, I'm sure most of you here have either working on a presentation now or have already in the past. And then we have fun case studies from the companies that actually presented this year, and we'll look at some of the transformations that we did for them. So why are presentations important, and what's really the cost, right? So everybody needs a presentation, and I've seen presentations, you know, on multiple tracks. You know, whether you're a founder, whether you're a marketing leader, whether you're, you know, leading a sales team, or whether you're on the leadership team, right? There's a type of presentation that most of you need, either it's a pitch deck, a sales deck. You've got events and conferences like this and board presentations and strategies for your investors, and each of them have a unique goal, so really understanding the purpose of whether is this deck gonna help me secure funding? Is this deck gonna help me convince prospects to try and buy our products? You know, are you using it for credibility, or are you just using it to inform and educate different audiences that you're gonna be in front of so everyone really could use a really strong, compelling presentation, and it's really critical in this space. Particularly, we work with a ton of tech companies as well, but in healthcare and Medtech, it's really, really important. Comes down to these 4.1 most products are really complex, so it's really, how do you transform that complexity into very simple, compelling visuals, so again, dissecting science, regulatory information, data, and really just kind of getting a clear story, but two it, it gives you a competitive edge. You know, a lot of companies overlook good presentations, and just by having, you know, investing a little bit and having a nice, clean presentation that not only helps you secure funding, but also helps you and works as a company overview, a product overview, and many other applications. So gives you a competitive edge, and it helps accelerates decision, right?

Kirk Patel  4:30  
We've heard investors don't waste their time. They don't want to see 50 slides. They want to see short, concise, clear slides. So really, whatever, either you're sending it over or you're presenting, you want to make sure that it helps and helps accelerate decisions. And the last is basically builds credibility, right? We all suit up and get ready because we want to look professional. And that's exactly what a nice, clean presentation does. It helps you build credibility, makes you look professional. These are actual quotes that we've heard from. One has said that, hey, you know, sloppy design makes you look unprofessional. And then they sometimes question, Is your business also unprofessional, right? Because right from the beginning, you have to make sure that all aspects are clearly conveyed. And the second thing is, you know, a bad teacher about a bad pitch deck doesn't just look unpolished. It's actually working against you, because that kind of sticks in the back of their mind. And they kind of, you know, you know, for for, for companies and investors that are designed first. It's really important that you put a good, professional presentation first. Now we're going to look at some common mistakes and shortcomings that often companies overlook, and what you can do to fix them overall. There's two broad areas. One is the content and the story part, and then the other is design. Most of the times when we're working with companies, they're opening PowerPoint, they start designing. That's the last thing you want to do. First thing you want to make sure is you have a strong narrative, right? So making sure that structure and flow is clear. Using too much technical jargon on presentations can sometimes really bore investors, not tailoring it for the right audience. So whether it's an investor, whether it's a customer, whether it's you're educating, you know a group of people at a hospital, whatever it may be, making sure that the presentations are tailored is really important. And the last is, it's a common mistake we see is between reading and presenting. We see tons of presentations that it's hard to identify whether this was a leave behind or this was a presenting. So really, either having dual slides or making sure that it's clear is key. And the second part is the design part, right? That's when you really open a PowerPoint or Google Slides, and you start going through but some of the common mistakes we see are cover slides. Oftentimes it's just a title, maybe an image, maybe not. Maybe a product image, maybe not. So really, that's, that's your first impression. You want to make sure that the cover slide that you work on is really, really impactful. The second is information overload. There's usually paragraphs and tons and tons of information that you want to make. You want to make sure that you are making sure it's very simple and clean, inconsistent branding, whether you're early stage and you don't have a brand guide or a style guide, but you can still follow industry standards and make sure the color palette, the fonts are consistent, because it still comes to us professional. And then the last thing is just plain text and no visuals. So again, that's pretty straight forward. We're gonna go through all the examples real quick, structure and flow. You know, we see the deck like this, and, you know, usually, sometimes talk starts about about us, and goes into the team and structure and what, everything. So again, if you don't have the audience in mind, you don't really know, but, for example, you know a platform like this, then you want to make sure that you're starting with some sort of an executive summary, so you set the stage, and then immediately dive into the problem, the solution, the product features, why now? And kind of so on and so forth. So making sure your structure and flow is in place is key. The second is technical jargon. You know, most founders are technical, and they think it's cool to kind of have all that verbiage on there, but it actually sometimes works against you, depending on the investors, if they're technical, great. If they're not technical, then you need to simplify it, right? So something as simple as round the clock could be changed to 24/7 right? So again, it's just very easy to digest. And so taking a slide with more technical information and just simplifying it to four things makes it really scannable. And then, depending on the audience, whether you're pitching to a hospital or patient or if it's investors, the type of visuals, the type of icons, the type of text that you put on, really makes the you know, a big difference in terms of conveying that message more effectively. And then, as I talked about reading and presenting, that's a reading deck that's leave behind. If someone wants to learn more about your products and get the details and the matrix and features, that's what you want to send them. But if you're presenting at a place like LSI, for example, you want to make sure that it's super high level, so you give them enough interest that then they follow up and maybe want to have a second discussion with you. So that's kind of what that looks like, side by slide. Now let's go into design. And so design has four parts. The first one is cover site, as I talked about, you want to make sure that this is the first impression you set the stage. We used an image in this example where we establish emotional connect. Another example where we're trying to really demonstrate the technology right on the first slide, so they get interested and they want to know more about what that is, and has you uncover more information. This is using custom illustration to showcase whatever it is. If you don't have a product or service, you can still use design elements to convey the message that you're trying to in this case, this is more about community health benefits. So that was illustration used here. And then, if you're leading with a product, no better side, you know, no better way to just put the product directly on that first slide and kind of set the stage of the message. The second part is information overload, as I. Talked about, no one wants to read paragraphs that bores investors, so you want to always kind of simplify or either, in most cases, split the slides into two. So here we have one that really highlights the strengths and the features, and the other is quotes and references from customers. So that way, there's a clear takeaway on each slide, and you're not overwhelming customers with information inconsistent design and brand is key. When we talk about branding, it's fonts, colors, visual elements. When we talk about design, it's more about layouts. It's more about margins. So if you're going through multiple slides and they're all over the place. That's gonna distract the investor, especially if you're early stage, and investors are used to seeing hundreds of decks, right? And so they're like, Hey, I've got five minutes for this presentation. If there doesn't look at 50 decks in that day or in that week, design is probably your best friend in terms of just helping you stand out. So making sure that your brand from before to after. Again, super clean, simple, using right images, showing that in the therapeutic space, some differentiators of products, but making sure it's clean and consistent. And then I've got a few examples on just plain text right now this, again, a lot of text. What do I really take away? I don't know. We've got three key points here. So all we're trying to say is 1535, and 60, and that's all really that needs to stand out from that message. So again, look at the data, and in almost every place possible, convert those into visuals that's going to help you make more of an impact. Tables. We see way too many tables, and the first thing we do is we try to convert them into some sort of a trend, or just one or two key takeaways. So taking a boring slide like that and showing some sort of a trend, is it turning upwards? Is it trending downwards? That's it. And then if that sparks interest, then they may ask more questions and have deeper discussions. And then, what does your top line, bottom line look like? Again? Just make sure make it easy for them to look at where they need to look. And then, as a bonus tip, use your slide titles to work for you and almost like a newspaper headline. So instead of market size, right, you can say something around seizing a $500 billion market opportunity that sets the stage. And then maybe they want to read the more you know, more of that slide. And there's examples of other you know, slides that we've done similar. For example, if it's team instead of team, say, hey, strategic leadership with 10 plus successful health care launches. Now they're interested. They want to know, who are these people? What 10 companies have they launched same thing with Financials, right? Saying financials versus saying 40% growth year over year again, gets them interested. So making sure that you've kind of used headlines as the as the title, just creates more impact. So I'll summarize this portion of the presentation, and we kind of covered these points, right? So we know everyone could use a strong presentation, founders, sales, marketing, comms, IR, depending on the size of your company, everyone could use a great presentation. They're important because we're simplifying complexity, giving a competitive edge helps build credibility and accelerates decision, whether it's investment, adopting your product, whatever it may be, and then some common mistakes that we looked at. So now the exciting part, we have two companies. We have two companies that we had the opportunity to help. Thank you this year, and we're going to start with sonovac first Elizabeth Hoff is the CEO. And before I dive into the slides that we had the opportunity to work on and kind of really transform them, this is kind of a zoomed out version of what that you know, what their deck looked like when we first started our engagement. So couple of words on where you were looking for help, and kind of what were some of the were some of the visual challenges that you were having. And then I'll dive into the after.

Elizabeth Hoff  14:06  
Yeah, I was so fortunate to get connected with Kirk before LSI. We were seed stage moving to a and I'm also an Angel Network myself. So I see a lot of deal flow that I invest in. I can't believe the transformation he gave. And Angel seed investors, A, B, etc, they judge your deck. And I interviewed probably 10 marketing companies that could do slides for me. And it just never felt right. I'd have to talk about the technology for hours, and, you know, and teach them and teach them and teach them and teach them. And I felt like Kirk and his team were just raw smart, and they just got it like right away what I was trying to convey, and transformed it into something that, guess what, is tweakable. Because for those of you who are running a company, you don't want a deck that looks beautiful for 30. Days and you can't tweak it. You got to go back and spend $10,000 to have them tweak it and it just so maybe that's too much right now, but yeah, it was. It was just a true blessing. You came in my life. I couldn't be happier.

Kirk Patel  15:13  
Amazing. Thank you. Appreciate it. So yeah, let's dive in and see what that looked like, right? So this is the before, so in kind of looking at our standard process, the first thing is, we help them, kind of optimize the flow, right, depending on the actual application. In this case, it was LSI, you know, what did the flow need to look like? How do we need to start? How do we hook them, and how much time do we have? So just identifying another thing, those, you know, process was important. Then we kind of, you know, map it out in terms of, hey, we're gonna have an intro, a problem solution team, market. So there's some sort of a structure we can identify if a slide is missing, if they need to be merged or split. So that was kind of the initial journey. And in both cases, they had a really strong brand guide and a style guide. So we had something really powerful to work from. It's not the case most of the time. Some companies come and say, Hey, we have a logo, and that's it, right? So we still need to find a way. But in this case, they had a strong brand guideline, so illustrations, color palette, font, so it was nice to work with that. We looked at the illustration pattern that they had on their brand and designed a custom illustration that we used further later in the deck. So that was one thing that we kind of did that was special. The second thing, once the structure and flow is in place, is basically establishing a mood board. So what images are you going to use? What icons are we going to use? What's the color palette? What's the font hierarchy? So just the basics of putting that together is really important, and then diving into the slide transformation. This was their solution slide. Again, almost all slides were working, but again, for the event, for the audience, it's important, like Elizabeth said, to be able to tweak it, modify it. So in this case, given the application, what we decided was, we decided to split the slides into three parts, right? So that way, there's a clear takeaway on each slide, and it's really easy to just dissect, right? And the first one, it's we're trying to highlight. Here's the image, and we have continuous fluid removal. The second thing is then the collection aspect of it, so we're clearly showing that. And then the last part is actually using, showing the product, and then through animation, highlighting how that's applied to a patient. So again, even if you don't read the text and just follow the visuals, you're still able to grasp kind of what it is that they're trying to do here. The second thing is, again, they had a slide, a lot of data. Again, all of it is important. However, for this particular application, we said, hey, let's simplify it, remove text that's redundant and not necessary because no one's going to have time to read it. So we removed everything in red and just kept what was in green. And that just two numbers, right? So now we've got, I'm trying to show here, there's a reduction of 25% in surgery, and then there was an increase in the consumption of the drug that was 2x again. 

Elizabeth Hoff  17:59  
Kirk on that can I just so on that last slide? In fairness, that slide I just put my thoughts on the slide, just kind of vomited on the slide, and they turned it into something transformational. So you don't need to have perfect slides to give to him that he makes better. You can have just foundational thoughts on paper, and he makes it just perfect. 

Kirk Patel  18:20  
Thank you. Yes, absolutely. And then again, a slide like this, for example, you have advantages. You have some amazing information, like being FDA cleared. There's just a lot of good stuff here that kind of gets lost just because it's a lot of text, right? So again, the key here you'll see as a pattern, especially for this event, is just splitting slides into just clear takeaways, one thing at a time on a slide, right? So here the first slide, we're just trying to give a comparison to an everyday device, so you immediately kind of just resonate that what is the product, the compactness of the product. The second thing is then just using icons to highlight the key takeaways. And then the third thing is using, again, additional visuals, just, you know, and logos to say, hey, we're FDA cleared. We're disrupting a 50 URL industry and that it supports over 15 major product lines. So that's kind of the before and the after, and then again, you know, just example of another slide here. The initially it was a comparison chart, but the key takeaway here was something a little bit different. So we just simplified it to just transform and say, hey, you know what somalvec is to deep tissue is really what pravarna is to superficial space. So again, nice, clean images to give a good comparison. And for investors in the space who are familiar would get this information right away. And then again, I came back to the cover slide. Really key here, the text was there, but we thought we could make it even better. So again, just cleaning up the text using a light background, and then adding the image of real patient with the product. Just, you know, sets the stage as they kick things off. So now we can kind of see the before and then. And the after. So again, the goal here is presentation, friendly, scannable and just more more impactful. So that's the after. But yeah, any final words, 

Elizabeth Hoff  20:16  
Plus just how to work with his team. I mean, I know I sound like a commercial, just you were just so easy to work with. If it was after hours, I could record a zoom, and on each slide, I just said, here are my thoughts. And by I think the next morning it was all done. And I just think as busy executives, we just don't have the time to sit on Zoom and educate people and talk and an hour and a half of telling someone what you want and and I don't know, you just got it, and I'm so appreciative.

Kirk Patel  20:46  
Yeah, no. I mean, absolutely. I think that's also through experience, because having done over 700 presentations, really start to understand the startup community and kind of what the expectations are, making it editable so that they can, you know, they don't have to always rely on me. And, you know, I don't get an email at nine in the, you know, at nine at night to say, hey, I need something by six in the morning. So being able to edit, again, the process of choosing the right partner, in case, you know, this is you chose us, is really the experience that they have in the industry. Because, like you said, I have, you know, founders have thoughts, right? CEOs have thoughts. And say, how do you translate that into a slide that can make most impact. That's really, you know, where we try to excel and get better at on a daily basis. So, 

Elizabeth Hoff  21:25  
And you don't have to have a perfect slide deck to take to you. You actually push back on me, saying, No, this is the flow that I think is better. So I like that you had thoughts and you weren't just listening to me. 

Kirk Patel  21:35  
Amazing. Great. Thank you. And then on my next case study here that we had the opportunity to work with Charles Allen, who's the CEO of mile one. Charles and team came to us. This was there before. Charles just wanted to share thoughts on kind of when you initially came to us, I know you had a really solid brand guide. You had some real good, real life examples and case studies and the content was all there. So overall, though, in which areas kind of, were you still struggling that you just wanted us to kind of, you know, have a second look? 

Charles Allan  22:11  
Yeah, no, I think one of the hardest parts when you have all these different areas you can go into and you're trying to tell a very complete story, is simplifying and making sure that you can just focus on the narrative. And I spent a lot of time just playing around with figures and doing all this stuff that to try to get what we're trying to do and out there, and you're not really focusing on the story, you're focusing on the visuals and things like that. So by bringing you in and having those discussions, you could really, I could be like, okay, they're gonna look good, and now I can just focus on, what are we trying to say? And that really helped in making sure that we could get the message out there. 

Kirk Patel  22:49  
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think you know when earlier, when you raising money, it's an investor, it's a pitch deg, but the same presentation, if you remove the Ask slide and some of the financials, it starts to become your company overview, and then maybe even it becomes a product deck. So it lives on for multiple applications. So again, an investment in this, whoever you choose to work with. It's really key for all things moving forward. So with Charles and team, kind of, what we did was, overall, they had a good deck. The first thing is we identified, I mean, we looked at the brand guide, really solid. This is everything they had. So product images, brand guides, fonts, logos, everything was was in place, so easy for us to work with. We first address their cover slide. So again, it works. We just kind of made it a little bit better in terms of the product image was there, but it was difficult to read. So choosing that, you know, choosing the right product image, there were design elements incorporated in the cover slide that that we felt could be used a little bit differently. So we kind of, you know, that was the before, and this is the after. So, really clean, powerful image of the product, subtle use of the design element to really show the tech Enos of that, and then just clean text to say, hey, you know, hey, this is what we do, right? So again, a very clean slide there. And then we selected a few slides that had a lot of information on that. And the information was great. It's just it needed to be split up into multiple slides so that when they're, you know, explaining their product and process and telling that story that it's just leaving that much more of an impact. So we start with kind of overall their problem slide, where a lot of information here. So again, we decided to kind of split this into four parts that just makes for a better storytelling. The first was kind of identifying the unmet need, right? So what are the three specialties that this applies to saying that, you know, there's really no unified solution here. And then there's 1.3 million patients. And then diving into each one of those specialties, one at a time. So first we talk about orthopedics, so we have clear numbers that just stand out. Then we dive into the vascular numbers. And then the last is critical care. So. Just visually telling that story keeps the investors engaged and gets the right information across. The second is the same. I think this is the product solution side overall, where, again, great information, really proven product here, good application. Decided to split this into multiple slides for a better visual storytelling, we decided that one slide should just have product details, right? So you've got the features to really just say, hey, here x, y and z, and this is kind of what really makes us unique. The second part is a dedicated slide for just the video. Sometimes a video becomes a subset of a slide, and oftentimes it's, you know, not clear, but in this case, just having very clear slide to show what that is in the real world. And then the last one is the the the features or the matrix of the product, and really the inner workings of it, so which was also really important to have. So again, clean, simple slides, the right type of text hierarchy to convey the information impactfully. So kind of the before and the after and what that looks like. And then they had a really good case study Kristi, where once we really understood the story, the slide that needed a little bit more explaining about Charles. Our job was to say, hey, how do we trim that from 30 seconds down to even five or 10? Right? Because time is everything here. And so we took a slide, and through the use of a little bit of animation, just really broke it up into three parts. So, you know, this is Kristi. We have an image of the fracture. There was a misdiagnosis, and unfortunately that led to amputation, right? So again, just keeping it super simple for the audience to have to understand the story. And then then the last slide again. You know, when we look at a slide like this, we always ask a question, is the image needed? Is the text important? What is it trying to say? And in this case, we mutually decided, like, hey, you know, we can remove the image and just focus on the text. We wanted to show some sort of a growth trend. So in this case, kind of a staircase type of a slide, which sometimes just the right type of visuals can really get them to think and get in the right mindset. And in this case, that was kind of the the goal of the slide. So overall, this this was the after of the presentation, the final set of slides. Yeah, any final

Charles Allan  27:24  
Yeah, I think working with you is was really smooth and a really good process. You could really focus in on the story as well. There's actually an increase in number of slides that were developed, but my story was able to be a little shorter, like which is kind of counter intuitive, because you could flow through the message a lot cleaner and a lot more smoother, smoother through the stories. You didn't have to sit there and try to explain all the different graphics you're trying to do. The message was really on the slide, so you could really pass that on. So I appreciate all the hard work you put into it and it made a difference. 

Kirk Patel  27:56  
Amazing. Thank you. Perfect. So thanks everyone. We'll leave the last 10 minutes for Q and A if you would like to connect. On the right is my QR for LinkedIn. I share insights, feedbacks all the time, so you can happily connect with me ask questions. And on the left, for anybody that's presenting or has a presentation wants me to look at, happy to give you an in depth feedback in terms of what you could do to improve, tweak, modify. So on the left, you can scan and reach out. On the right, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. So yeah, we have, we have some time. Anybody has any questions happy to answer it, clarify, but thank you to the both of you as well. Nice.

Elizabeth Hoff  28:36  
I'll say one other thing while you're thinking about questions, I saw a deck of someone pitching my angel organization. And I said, Wow, your slides are really beautiful. You know who did your slides? And this person said, well, actually, thanks so much for the compliment. I didn't myself, and it didn't go over well, because they were so beautiful that you can imagine that the CEO was sitting there spending hours and hours and hours on their own deck. And I'm thinking, what are you not doing in terms of progressing? You're progressing your company. And so, you know, it's a judgment call as to where you spend your time. 

Kirk Patel  29:10  
Yeah, exactly, yeah it's, yes. 

Kirk Patel  29:16  
Yeah, that's great. Yeah. That's great. Yeah, great question. So just to repeat, but if anybody wants to ask questions, here's to Mike, How expensive are typically these services and what are clients willing to pay? So it really depends. I mean, you know, services with us typically start at around two, three, and can go all the way up to eight, nine, ten, but if you find the right partner, anywhere between two to $5,000 is typically an investment you can be ready to make for an initial 10, 12, 15, slide deck that can get you up and running and then continue to kind of improve and build on but that's typically where it is. If you're looking for help, for more around story and narrative and really try to get that out, then that. It starts to look like a 10k 15k engagement. And there's different people that do that. We try to focus more on the design aspect of things, but that's typically where a good deck ends up being in.

Audience Question  30:03  
So can you say more about that difference between the visual design component and the story component? Because I feel like a lot of times is they're all together kind of holistically. 

Kirk Patel  30:24  
Yes, yeah, exactly. It's great question. So the question is, how much of the time and how do you marry story and content and design? And I think initially, when we started the first year into the business, we were focusing mostly on design. As we did more and more presentations, we quickly realized you really can't design unless you have a story in place, right? So I think spending 50% of your time before opening PowerPoint, focusing on story, focusing on narrative, focusing on the audience, focusing on the number of slides you need. How much time do you have? Are you in a town hall? Are you in front of zoom, right? All of those things matter. And as you're putting together that data and that information, you'll know, do I need more information or less information time? You know the size of the fonts right depends on where you're presenting, so things spending half of your time doing that. And then the design becomes much, much more easier, because then you know exactly what you want to say, and it's just a matter of pairing it with good images, good icons, maybe some text hierarchy. Or even if, at that point, once you have the initial part in place, it's easier to find a service provider to help you put it together. Versus going to someone and saying, I need a deck, and then they ask you, what do you have? And you say you have nothing, then they're just throwing numbers at you. Versus, if you go to them with a more structure, the execution becomes easy. So great question.

Charles Allan  31:42  
Yeah, I just to follow up on that. The it's a lot. I find it that's easier said than done. When you're you're trying to create a story, you're trying to get something out there, it's very easy to fall, fall into doing the presentation. And if you don't have a service provider helping you out with that, then you feel like you have to, and you get drawn into, and you spend a lot of time figuring out fonts and graphs and not on the story, so making sure that you can invest in that, but also just focus in on what really matters, which is telling the most compelling story, is very, very important, and it's super helpful to be able to do that. 

Kirk Patel  32:16  
Yeah, right on. Thank you, awesome. Well, thank you everyone, and thank you. 

Elizabeth Hoff  32:23  
Thank you, Kirk. 

Charles Allan  32:33  
Thank you.