What Does 2024 Hold For the Frozen IPO Market? | LSI USA '24

Kimberly Ha  0:05  
Well, thanks, everyone for joining us. I know it's last day. But yeah, let's start with some brief introductions maybe starting with, with Shane. Sure.

Shayne Kennedy  0:14  
My name is Shayne    Kennedy. I'm a corporate partner at the law firm of Latham and Watkins, most of the global Chair of our healthcare and life sciences industry group. So my practice focuses on companies that cross every stage of the lifecycle, but with a particular focus on IPOs. And thereafter.

Eric Dimise  0:35  
I'm Eric demissie, with a New York Stock Exchange and the healthcare and life sciences Capital Markets team, in my capacity at the NYSC, I work with private companies on the road to going public. So that could mean a few months from now, it could mean a few years from now. So it's always good. And I think a theme that it'll be taught to us early to prep. So in my capacity that I work with companies looking to achieve a public transformation and support them on that journey.

Jaione Maiz  1:04  
Great. I'm Jaione Maiz based in San Francisco, I work at the firm called Anzu partners, we are an early stage deep tech investment firm. My focus is deep tech into life sciences. So that covers my device, med tech, diagnostics, following gene therapy, etc. My, my interaction with IPOs is been supporting our current companies as they think about different optionality for their exits. And then also in a previous context at SBB, at Silicon Valley Bank doing 409 A valuations and tracking those companies all the way from formation through IPO. So before that was a scientist that PhD in neuroscience, so great to be here.

Kimberly Ha  1:40  
Right, I guess my first question is really, I guess, Shane, you know, you're obviously working with a number of companies that are, you know, doing an IPO. And similarly, Eric, I guess, what are you both kind of seeing in terms of the pipeline right now, I, you know, from work, you know, because we also work with biotech companies Pharma. And like across the spectrum, obviously, biotech is, you know, gearing back up right now, but med device, I guess, you know, not so much. Maybe can you talk a bit about why that is?

Shayne Kennedy  2:13  
I mean, I'll give you a sort of my impressions of it. You know, look, we're coming out of what was, you know, just a terrible IPO market, I think IPOs, as a whole sort of dropped like 93% or something like that. In 2022, and 2023, we started to see a little bit of a rubber of a rebirth, mostly towards the end of the year, there was a lot of good transactions announced sort of in q4 of last year and rolling into this year, I think we saw some some things coming out of JP Morgan, which was exciting. But in terms of med tech IPOs, and I always think of at least in my experience, when the IPO market starts to come back, it's oftentimes led by the biotech companies, because for them, it is just like another financing and in a line of financings and they always need money, like crazy, and they don't need necessarily the same company profile that a med tech company needs to go public. So. So I think you see those start to come out what I have been encouraged with is worse active right now at least, couldn't speak to the whole firm. But on the West Coast, we're active right now on three or four, med tech IPOs. So will they go out this year? I think that's going to be an interesting question to see. But the fact that these folks have ramped up engaged banks started a process and are starting to work with the SEC is encouraging. From my perspective, I think what we're hearing when we talk to banks is, you know, you've got sort of a window between now and call it August, September. And then I think they'll see they expect to see things sort of slow down as a result of the election and sort of people not knowing exactly how that's going to impact the market. And so if you're not out by you know, let's call it September, you're probably a q1 or q2 2025 IPO companies kind of what I'm hearing.

Eric Dimise  4:14  
So I think I'm have to agree with just about all of it. I think we're going to agree in a lot of things today. 2023 was obviously a super quiet year, for a lot of obvious reasons, most of them being macro in nature, I think so biotech is a leading indicator. I would agree with that. We've already seen that this year, between January and February 6 biotech IPOs, compared to last year's 12. So we're already 50% of the way of achieving we didn't biotech through an entire year in 2023. I think with the macro environment looking better, we can obviously look at the first most of the first quarter and even today with all the major indices closing up. We had a very robust IPO today. Looking at the biotech market, I think we're feeling gentle really optimistic and NYSC? About the course of the year writ large? I think for med tech in particular, I would agree, I think there is a pipeline of med tech companies that want to go public. And I think the timeframe that you flagged also resonates. The question now for those companies is let's monitor the market. Fortunately, they're in a situation, I think most of them were there, we don't feel like we need to rush. We don't want to rush the market, we'll get the process started. And then we'll see how end of year looks, or early next year looks. And so when I'm talking about sort of recovery from a very, very slowly gear in 2023, when history is written, I think it will be headed 2020 for a perform, and then sort of first half of 25, to really understand the rebound from the lows we hit last year. And so I think I agree with everything you said the pipeline seems about right. And I think that's the reason to be optimistic taken in the broader market into account. As we'll probably get into this in terms of the election, but I think the the coverage in the media around the election, may overblow, a little bit about maybe a little bit overblown, in my opinion, I think there'll be a window around the election itself, whether it be a slowdown of issuance, but it's not going to be an enormous window. In our opinion, I think you're right, that summer will play it down as it tends to do and I don't think that's a strange thing. But potentially looking at a window of opportunity in 2024, at the end of the year, once we sort of get past the election, Thanksgiving sort of timeframe.

Shayne Kennedy  6:41  
Yeah, and I think I mean, I think a little bit of what pushes med tech companies in particular, like into 2025, right, is that oftentimes those IPOs are getting priced based on a multiple of revenue, right. And so now, the closer you get to 2025, it starts to make sense to wait right and see what the revenue was for 2024. And price off of that, as opposed to your 2023 revenue, or 2022 revenue. So there's like a bunch of stuff that that you're thinking about when you're thinking about what their pricing is, but I think for med tech companies in particular, where oftentimes their pricing off of that, you will see them start to slip into the next year to take advantage of another good year, if that's what they're saying.

Kimberly Ha  7:21  
Great. Thanks. And Hyoni I guess, you know, can you talk a bit about what your advice was for some of the portfolio companies maybe last year that were looking, you know, to raise funding with the IPO market was closed? Like what forms of alternative financing? And I guess even for some of the audience members out here, like what advice would you have, you know, for companies, you know, currently in this in between kind of maybe doing a cross over funding round?

Jaione Maiz  7:47  
Yeah, it's obviously been very difficult to fundraise. Over the past 1218 months, we have been pushing hard to look for alternative, maybe there's government funding, right? Different organizations that are interested in supporting projects or companies. And then specifically partnerships, right partnerships with strategics. If you can get to non dilutive financing, that's also validation for the company to help move that next validation or milestone. We've seen those be really impactful for our companies. And

Kimberly Ha  8:20  
I'm gonna ask this question, like, how early is too early, you know, for med tech company, you know, as they're starting to prepare, I think, what is interesting, you know, for biotech companies, obviously, they are doing IPOs. Like, I mean, we were seeing, like, you know, when the market was super hot, like preclinical company, I mean, you still, you know, we also still had a preclinical bow tech go out, you know, earlier this year, obviously, performance wise, didn't really do that. Great. But, but for med device, I'm always seeing that, you know, it's always, you know, after the approval, and it's, you know, from a valuation standpoint, do you see that changing? Or because now there's certain companies that are kind of, I would say, like this in between kind of device kind of drug approach, like, what would be your counsel and kind of advice to those companies? And how far in advance should they be thinking about, you know, getting the right advisors and meeting with the exchanges? I know, that's a loaded question.

Shayne Kennedy  9:19  
Ya know, there's a lot, there's a lot to unpack there. But I do agree with you. So I would say, historically, you know, med tech company, thinking about going public, the things that we would be talking to them about are from a preparedness standpoint to do an IPO. Because there's so much focus on on operations and revenue, right? Is really like your ability to predict going forward, what those numbers are going to be right because that's what you're going to be measured against as a public company. So I think there's a couple of things to think about. One is milestones like what are the milestones coming up that are gonna be value generating? And how do you think about the timing of an IPO relative to those milestones? So for a, if you were a med tech company trying to go public before you had approval, those milestones would be very important, right? Like, when do we think we're going to finish the the clinical trial that we're going to use to file for our PMA or 510? K? What how does that fit into the, to the framework? When do we think we'll get the feedback on that? How does that fit into the timing of the IPO? Because what you're gonna see is investors like, you know, they want they want surety. So the only thing they have to look at in that context is what are the results of this clinical trial? Or when are they coming? And what is the likelihood of, you know, approval, and so you would want to think about the timing relative to those things. On the finance side, like, as a med tech company, you 100% need to be able to, like forecast that, you know, 2025 is going to be x and and then you have to hit that right. And so starting to think about how good you are at being able to do those things are critical to sort of being able to be a public company, which is an important part of this decision process, right? It's not just can we go public, it's can we be a public company? And there's a lot that's wrapped up in that. So I think those types of things are things you can start thinking about right away, right? Like, even if you're a year 18 months out, those are the types of things you can start to think about in terms of like, when do we really want to engage on this process? How do we want to fit it in. And there's a lot of stuff that you can be doing in the interim period, right, like starting to build relationships with investment banks, starting to connect with analysts and starting to tell your story and get that like out there. You don't want those first conversations to be, you know, the month before you did your org meeting, or heaven forbid, like during TTW type things the first time. So I think those are all things you can get started on right away. And then like, just from a pure legal perspective, like, if you are going to go public, like get your team together, like six months, at least before the day, you're gonna kick that process off and start to go through what you need to do. I don't wanna talk more, there's more to say, but

Eric Dimise  12:19  
no, I mean, I would agree with that. I certainly get concerned if we're talking to a company or we say what's too soon to be talking to an exchange, you're thinking about this and say, Well, what is your rough timeline? And they say, Oh, well, at least well, we have 12 months out. So we should absolutely be talking to us now. Who else have you spoken with? And where what relationships do you have and the tip start today? Start today. So I think the key takeaway is without being repetitive, too, to start early in prep, prep prep, you don't want it to your point, your first earnings call to be the first time you've ever gone through that process. So we often you know, advise companies, you know, before you IPO, do a couple quarterly earnings calls as a private company, so that you're prepared to do that we see companies go out and do that for the first time. And someone says, one thing that doesn't sound good to investors in the stock is can be dramatically impacted, and no one wants that. So I would agree with all of that in terms of prepare, prepare, prepare, get your partners in line, including your bankers and analysts. One thing we often say is, you date your banker, but you marry your analysts. These are the folks who are going to be you know, publishing research and providing Buy, Sell hold advice to the to the buy side. And so understanding who those folks are building those relationships by going to the sell side conferences, and presenting and getting to know them early, can only help you. I think in terms of initially talking to the exchange to get back to sort of my first conversation, I routinely talk to companies that are easily two years out from a transaction. And you should think about how an exchange can help you as a private company, because there's a lot we can do to help private companies along that journey. That's a big part of what I do every day, in addition to building the partnerships to execute a successful s one, and to get your valuation and to work with your bankers, your exchanges can help with marketing invisibility, we can help with networking, we can help with events, all these things that bring you together with other members of the community that you're going to need to have relationships with to execute a successful IPO. So certainly, if I email you and you're 12 months out, and you say I'll get back to you, when it's when the time is right. And you're thinking six months, and we can have a 30 minute conversation so you understand what an exchange can do to help support you on that journey. So that's another big piece of the puzzle. So I would I would sort of on top of everything you said. I think the question was, when should we start conversations with us individually? I don't think there's any harm in having an early conversation even two or three years out, even if we talked for 30 minutes. say, Great, we'll connect that next year as JP Morgan, talk to you in 12 months, that's okay. Because you've had the conversation understand well, how we can be helpful.

Jaione Maiz  15:10  
And one more thing, the framework we use for our companies is six months of learning, sorry, six quarters of earnings, right? So can you predict out what you're going to say? No, six months? Is there Predictable Revenue? Is there predictable kind of milestones, so we can address kind of in that timeframe, and then going backward? We typically engage with companies first, it's like Series A. So then it's thinking about how do we maintain that optionality? Right IPL? Maybe, depending on micro and macro? But you know, maybe it's m&a? And how do we, how do we think about all of that at the same time? So maybe that includes doing a fancy audit that prepares you for an IPO in case that later PCAOB? Or something? Or maybe that's you know, when is the right time to have that in place? When is the right time to think about a proper CFO? Do we want that CFO to have public company experience or not? I'm thinking about some of those frameworks, just to kind of maintain that optionality in the early stages as we're growing the company.

Kimberly Ha  16:01  
And I guess, if there's a company, I guess, that we're the management team is, I guess, a bit green, and they haven't really done an IPO? Or maybe let me rephrase, haven't done a successful IVF. I guess, should they be thinking about just just bringing on independent board members? And I think, you know, we discussed this a bit, kind of in our prep call, I guess, in terms of, you know, what should companies be looking for in in board members? And how important is that board dynamic heading into an IPO? Like, should they be thinking about maybe using these board seats to fill in certain gaps that the management team doesn't have? I hear I see. So maybe go to,

Shayne Kennedy  16:44  
I mean, I think building the right board for your public company is like, absolutely critical. I think, folks have a tendency sometimes to think, you know, oh, we've got, we've got enough people on the board, maybe we have to add one to fill this bucket, we'll take we'll take care of that at the time. One of the things you have to remember is that as a public company, getting somebody off of your board is like nearly impossible, unless they're willing to leave. And so really taking the time to make sure that you have folks on your board that are providing the right experience and background, but also the right cultural fit is absolutely critical. And that that second piece of that is the piece of that takes time, right, you've got to interview people, you've got to talk to them, you've got to have them meet with the rest of the board members to really identify the folks that you think are going to gel and be good. So. So thinking about that, you know, six months or even more ahead of time, I think is is is important, the challenge you run into right is, as a private company you undoubted. If you've got, you know, VC investors in there, then you've got all kinds of limitations in the documents in terms of who has to be on the board, how long they have to be on the board, who's gonna vote and all that type of stuff. Now, a lot of that goes away at the time of the IPO. And it gives you a little bit of flexibility. But thinking about that early and starting to plan it out. And also going to your existing board members, and getting an understanding of who wants to stay on the board post IPO. And who wants to transition off is also helpful. So you really need a picture of what you're going to need, and then how to build it, because some of the VCs will want to stay and some will be anxious to get out. And so and then you've got to think about things like diversity, and you've got to think about things like how do we build an audit committee that's got the right characteristics on it. So it's a complex process that takes some time.

Eric Dimise  18:41  
I would add to that, I don't think we have to limit the discussion strictly to board composition. And although everything you just said is, is spot on, I think, you know, in our experience, you're working with companies that are going through this process and starting more than six months out a year out where maybe you need to hire a CFO, or maybe you need to change your CFO, or you need to add more interest, you know, more more staffing beneath, you know, to to support the CFO to get through this process. And so certainly those are all considerations that need to be thought through carefully. And you're bringing on a CFO that has done an IPO before you go to, you know, maintain the CFO you have and how are we going to help train this person to achieve a successful successful IPO? Given the complexities of the process? And so these are questions that we see companies rep with across sectors really, all of the time in terms of, you know, completing this this journey, and it does. It does take time.

Shayne Kennedy  19:40  
Yeah, I would echo that because I think you can get some value out of your board members in terms of their public company experience, but in terms of like, going through an IPO process, that's not the place I would look for the support, right. I think to your point like you need a CFO that's been through the process. First, or maybe a GC that's been through the process, somebody that's going to be able to sort of take the reins for the most part of that transaction, and really direct it that's been through it before. And that's important too, because in many cases, you don't want that to be the CEO, like, we want him involved. But we don't want that person spending all of their time on an IPO, they need to run the business. Right. So having somebody that's been through that process, and can really direct the process is critical to being successful.

Kimberly Ha  20:28  
And I mean, what would be your advice to companies and audience that are in the bankers? I mean, the banking syndication selection process, like, how, I mean, I'm not mentioning any names, but I've honestly, I mean, there's, I mean, not mentioning anything, but But I mean, it, you know, it could, you know, kind of selecting the wrong kind of fit could really just blow up what could have been a really great idea. And I think, to your point, even on the CFO, like this was like years ago now, but, you know, I remember I was working with his oncology company, and they were like, spectacular, it was everything was great. Until they hired literally, that CFO that, unfortunately, just just blew the company apart and just blew the entire IPO process apart. And the company never recovered, unfortunately, because it's oncology, like, their competition moved on. And it just like, it was just down round after down round. And it was just heartbreaking to kind of see that but you know, kind of going through the trenches, all three of you like, what would be your advice in terms of just situations, you see where you're like, Oh, my God, I can't believe that blew me I guess rephrase a different way, what should companies avoid? And not do?

Shayne Kennedy  21:57  
I feel like I'm talking too much. So you guys jump in.

Jaione Maiz  22:01  
Early. In terms of Well, to answer the first question, I think about bankers, right. Going back to the analysts, so important, right, so So meeting those folks early, understanding how they do their work, what they're looking for seeing who might make sense for you. Super important, and I would say early is fine, right? Yeah. But I'll pass off part two.

Eric Dimise  22:27  
Me in terms of selecting bankers, I mean, if you're approaching the point of, you're looking like you're going to approach an IPO, that you're probably going to be the banks will be reaching out to you, I think in this environment, I think it really flipped from the height of the 2122 Boom, that we learned a lot from where now I think you will be the subject of outreach to from from the banks, and then you'll have to think about who you want to work with and understand their track record. And with the really strong now it's a bulge bracket. Banks and they probably have deep experience in your sector and and then maybe it comes down to the cost of working with with that with that bulge bracket bank. So it'll it'll I think, I think I don't know exactly what else to add in terms of selecting a bank versus them coming in, you know, reaching out to you and thinking about what's best for your business. And that's,

Jaione Maiz  23:24  
I'll add one more little thing on to that, which is you can ask them for comps, right? Like, especially some of these newer, somebody said on an earlier panel, but companies are more and more across categories, right? And may not just be this category or this bucket. And so asking them like, hey, what do you what would you pin us against? Like, what do you think are good transactions? Or what are good IPOs? Or what are? Like? How would you think about our business? Right? Is a helpful way to kind of gauge do they get it? Like, do they get what you're doing or not?

Shayne Kennedy  23:50  
Yeah, no, I think I think that's great. A lot of times, if I'm talking to companies that are thinking about their bank Syndicate, I sort of tell them look, if you have the the good fortune of having bulge bracket banks interested in you, then 100% You should have one or two of the bulge bracket banks on the top line of your IPO leading the deal. And I say that because I think that's a definite sign to the market that like this is a legitimate company that folks really believe in. So I think that gives your IPO like right off the bat, a little bit of additional legitimacy and and look, those bulge bracket banks get deals done. I mean, they just do right. So they're gonna they're I think that gives you the highest likelihood of a successful IPO. Then I think when you start to think about, you know, sort of the CO managers and the other underwriters that make up that syndicate. We've touched on this, that is, in my perspective, when you're really looking at who are the folks that have the analysts in the space that we want covering us that we need covering us and That's one of the ways that you pick up sort of the analyst coverage that you need is through co managers that you might have on your bank. And a lot of times, those banks are the ones that might have even more particular experience within your industry, so they can help guide you from that perspective. The other thing I say is, you know, all bulge brackets are not the same. And we all like people differently than others. And so it's absolutely critical to like, meet with these folks. Talk to them understand who exactly from the bank is going to be working on your transaction? Who's the person you're going to be working with day to day? And how do you fit with them again, like, what's the culture? Do they have the right sense? Do they, like, get the story that as you think it is, and are willing to help you tell it in a way that, you know, is compelling for you, from your perspective, they're not all the same that way. And, you know, you may gravitate towards one or the other. And I think that's appropriate, and you should follow that.

Kimberly Ha  25:58  
And I guess, I wanted to save some time for audience q&a at the end. But other question is really, what are the I guess, macro economic factors? Just, you know, I think we mentioned obviously election, I think in biotech, obviously, the IRA, but for med tech, you know, what are some other factors that you think could really impact? You know, how hot the med tech IPO market is this year?

Shayne Kennedy  26:25  
I think one of the things you'll see help the market, which I think we're starting to see, is just strategics re engaging, right? I think that when when we start to see them engaging and looking for acquisitions, then that tends to boost the IPO market, right? Because that's a sign that, that there's some value here that folks should be extracting. And, you know, you may end up selling to the strategic but the fact that there are strategics in and I think we are starting to see them, you know, reemerge in the space, I think is a is a factor that helps drive that market.

Eric Dimise  27:02  
I would say it's definitely a sort of a leading indicator. And you know, that's certainly something that we're seeing happen in biotech. Now, again, potentially with a record breaking m&a record for q1. I think you asked macro. And so I think obviously, with the expectation that there will be cuts in interest rates is a huge plus over last year. In conversation, we usually say it's, it's, you're in a much better position, and you're talking about when interest rates will go down, and when they will stop going up. And so the story that we told last year, is that they kept going up. And then we saw the market respond in late December, when the announcement was that we will stop increasing them in the s&p, the Dow NASDAQ, I'll shut up at the end of the year. That's when the SBI in biotech started to rebound. And that's traced its way through the first quarter of this year. And so I think that is a huge, huge piece. There's just so there's so many macro headwinds that we're facing through 2023 are different this year are priced or sort of priced in the market sort of figured them out. I think just to go back to the election, because that's obviously a big piece of what everyone I get asked all the time. I don't know if you. But I get asked this all the time about the impact of the election. So I think an interesting stat to think about in terms of overall market performance in an election year, is that 20 of the last 24 election cycles, the s&p has closed up on the year. Okay, two of the two of the years, when s&p closed down, were in 1932, in 1940. Okay. Now, the years were 2002 1008. So, so in terms of overall market performance versus an election, that's sort of one question to think about, they may not necessarily be coupled in the way that I think broader coverage is getting. And then I already talked about sort of the expectations around new issuance around the election that I think, you know, on our Capital Markets team were a little more bullish in terms of the windows being a little more open than made than sort of press coverage may suggest they will be in terms of the windows being closed some some help permanently for the latter half of the year. But getting to the macro. I get asked this all the time, so I wanted to make sure we sort of check that box. And feel free to revisit in q&a. Yeah,

Jaione Maiz  29:41  
a lot a little bit more. And it's perhaps less macro than your macro. But trending is. From our perspective, it's hard to look at the public comps and that are all under you know, trading under cash. Right. And I think that that's an aspirational kind of path for a company and that's made it really difficult. So hopefully these other things that Shane and Eric are talking about will help lift companies up. The ones that are already public, right, in addition to the good performance at the company, helps support that rising tide, I think will be beneficial, hopefully for others.

Kimberly Ha  30:16  
And should companies always be looking at a dual track strategy? Are there certain types of companies? Or does that just happen naturally? Pretty much. It's like, I feel like every single tech is like, running some type of process.

Eric Dimise  30:30  
I feel that way. Yeah, I think it's I don't think that's unusual. It's, I would say it's the norm right now. I think it almost feels unwise to not entertain both options, or at least to potentially prep for that. I mean, just in terms of how you talk to

Shayne Kennedy  30:48  
100%. I mean, I think it's just assumed, and I think the question is, like, how aggressively Are you going to pursue the dual track, right? So, you know, you may have your bankers reach out to a few folks that you think are likely, you know, acquirers and or you may like, try to run a full process, right? Where you really aggressively go out, I think the former is probably more common, and usually happens all the time. You might even get inbound requests, right? Like, as soon as I mean, the interesting thing about all the confidential filings now is that it doesn't have the same impact as it used to because you publicly flip and you've only got two weeks before you're doing a roadshow. Whereas before, you know, you filed that thing. And it was four months until you were public. So everybody got to see what was going on. And you got a lot more inbound, I think, requests during that process. So now I think it takes a little bit of activity on the side of the bankers to see what's out there. But I would say everybody that we work with pursues it at some level.

Jaione Maiz  31:54  
I'll add, Eric and I talked a little bit about this earlier, but single asset companies are a little bit tougher, right? If it's a single molecule and biopharma or a single thing in some med tech, right. It's still possible, but I think that makes it a little bit harder.

Kimberly Ha  32:11  
Any, I guess, lightning round, final thoughts for the audience before we heading to q&a?

Shayne Kennedy  32:20  
I mean, the one other trend that I would that I'm hearing right now, that is different from what I've heard historically, about med tech companies, which I think is interesting is I think, historically, you might have thought of a med tech IPO candidate, as you know, someone that's an approved product, and probably, let's call it $50 million in revenue, right, with a run rate that looks exciting. I will say that we have been engaged with a few folks now that are earlier stage, right. And I think you might have mentioned this cam, but some of these companies are really sort of like almost trying to fit themselves into the biotech type of company, right? Like, we're first in class, we've got great data, we've got a huge market. So we're so like, if we get approved, there's, you know, there's this huge ramp, and that's a very interesting, that's a different dynamic from what we're accustomed to. It's one that drives evaluation, I think, much higher than folks that are thinking of, you know, okay, we're a $300 million company post IPO because we got X revenue type thing. And so I think you see folks interested in that, because it provides potential higher valuations, but also allows you to get out earlier and and they're also thinking of it like a biotech company where it's, it's just the next financing right to get to the next milestone. So that I think is actually pretty interesting, because it is a very different dynamic than what we've seen historically.

Eric Dimise  33:51  
Would you say that depends primarily on novelty of what they're offering is highly, highly differentiated. Yeah, truly different so that you can position yourself that way? Yeah.

Shayne Kennedy  33:59  
I think like, you know, you're you're first in class effect. Yeah, right. No one's doing anything like what you're doing. Yeah. No one's seen it before. Like that type of technology, I think has chance to fit into that. Yeah.

Eric Dimise  34:11  
So lightning round, I guess, prepare, prepare, prepare and prepare early. Yeah, I think that's that's a key takeaway. And something I try to have conversations to have with every company that we speak with that are early in the process, and make sure that we're all defining early, the same way.

Jaione Maiz  34:28  
Yeah, I was gonna say early to, just like, folks say, hey, think about your regulatory strategy and reimbursement early. Talk to the FDA earlier than you think you might need to, like, you know, engage with these folks earlier than you think you might need to, like, start seeing who around the table, your board, your company, whoever, your lawyers who has experience who doesn't like what are some of the things that they're thinking about, even if it's yours out, just education?

Kimberly Ha  34:51  
Well, thanks. So we've got five minutes for q&a. If the audience has any questions, feel free. If there's a microphone there.

Anmol Kapoor  35:04  
Hi, thank you so much amazing and lightning. My name is Anmol    Kapoor. I'm a cardiologist from Canada. I am into multi omics AI and blockchain and we're seeing some transition happening in healthcare. So what are you guys seeing from IPO perspective, the company's into data analysis, big data analysis and multi omics? Is that catching up? Or are you guys hearing things about here?

Shayne Kennedy  35:35  
Your stock market?

Anmol Kapoor  35:37  
It's all about data. Because for example, one GB is one Tn is 100. GB, right? So but as personal health is getting more popular, more accessible, and more affordable, the technology companies working in the sphere, probably will be going to profit from it. But what are you guys seeing in your side?

Eric Dimise  35:59  
I mean, I think in the pipeline for certain that that type of approach exists right now, in terms of actual issuance. Currently, I think it's still something we're where we have to see how it plays out. And that may take a few years of companies going public to sort of figure out how that performs. I think a challenging piece right now, is that it seems like across the board, companies are using AI or ml are sort of big data in their branding. And so I think a big piece in terms of the investors that are buying IPOs right now is to understand what that means in the context of each company. I think that's, that's challenging. So I think it's still somewhat early days in terms of analyzing IPO, and post market performance for the specific thing you're talking about. But I think it'll probably play out over the next few years. I mean, in terms of the pipeline, without you I mean, I

Shayne Kennedy  37:04  
think I agree, I agree with all that I think, like digital health right now, right? It's like a huge catchphrase. Everybody wants to do it, everybody. And if you ask somebody what that is, you'll get 10 different definitions, right? Nobody really knows what it is. So it's definitely something that folks want to focus on. They think it's important. And I think the trick was something like big data, right is going to be like, how can you? How do you explain the value proposition of that the money that is going to be generated from that, right, like everybody's talking about they have it? Or they're going to generate it right. But then how do you convert that into cash. And so I think that's going to be the piece that once people get their arms around how that works and see it come to fruition, then I think that will help the market. But there's like a hunger and thirst for anything that is digital health right now. So there definitely is momentum out there to find those things and see what can be done with them.

Jaione Maiz  38:07  
Just that we look a lot at multi omics things, right. And one question is, you know, does it become a diagnostic? Is it a tool to come up with new omics, right? Like, what what part of the ecosystem? Are you kind of playing with what is your final asset look like? And then if you're adding blockchain like, you're probably gonna have to do some work to help educate on how these different components might interact and maybe framed up toward the final impact right of, of your ecosystem of your own ecosystem.

Thank you.

Kimberly Ha  38:39  
Thanks, everyone. Thanks for joining me on this panel. And thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Good.