The Boardroom | LSI Europe '22

Transcriptions

Roger Brookes  0:03  

It's great, we've got three amazing people here. And I wasn't here for the introductions, I don't know if they got introduced. But I've cut my, my own relationships with this group that's, you know, it's three of the, to me, top people in Europe. Maybe I'll give a quick introduction, and then we'll we'll fire fire away. Anne Osdoit from MD start, probably one of the brightest minds in Europe right now around early stage med tech, she really really gets it when it comes to understanding all the things and all the complications around early stage med tech, and she's innovating at MD start. And Pepe, probably one of the most diplomatic board members, you'll find, I think he he's able to create cohesion, and drive a team together. And then you've got Oern who's been part of 20 boards. And about 10 of them, he's been board chair, he's driven multiple exits, some of them we call a unicorn. So if I had to look this up, and so unicorn, if you don't know means a billion dollar exit, and those are what everybody now venture people love to get, or everybody loves to get a unicorn. And earn, got a triple unicorn with pulmonic when they went public. And earns probably best claim to fame is this drive towards a goal of an exit and creating value. It becomes relentless just like he, he was in his younger days when he was a famous athlete. So so to to start it out. We are we have Mary somewhere out there. Okay, so Mary's right there. We would like this to be interactive. So we want you to come forward questions, just kind of make eye contact with Mary, she'll bring a mic by and feel free to fire away. So we've got some different content areas that we're going to cover and interject any time you feel like you've got a really good question for them. We're going to start out with more about board, board construction and how boards are put together. And we're going to start out with with Ann, and maybe talk to us a bit about sometimes when people think of boards, they think of something bad like I've kind of report to the board, that board can be bad. Tell us a little bit about how you see boards, and why they're just a fantastic asset to a CEO and accompany.

Anne Osdoit  2:48  

Thank you, Roger, and hi, everyone. Yeah, I think, you know, one of the fundamental misconceptions, you know, CEOs can have is that they don't want to be bothered by their boards, right, they'd rather not have a board at all, or have a very, you know, easygoing board, which will just be, you know, a place where once a quarter, you just get decisions minuted, and that's it, you don't have to get into a lot of discussions. And I think, you know, it's, it's actually really important for CEOs to realize that the boards they will be building or they could be building is actually an extended part of their team. And you know, you have a lot of, you know, influence and of course, how you assemble it. And in how you manage it, you can actually get these people to do work for you. And you should be doing that. Because, you know, again, they will be your sparring partners on the number of things that your actual team operational team cannot give you. And so, you know, I when I hear young CEOs say, hey, you know, do I really want to, but do I really have to bother about the board? And you know, should I be thinking about a board? I think there's a huge opportunity there to be seized, and, you know, to be proactively engaging with

Roger Brookes  4:13  

Yeah. And a strong board is a good board, strong by

Anne Osdoit  4:18  

A strong board is a good board. It's a board that has a lot of experience and expertise. It's a board that says things and just you know, it doesn't just sit there and you know, listening, it's a board where you have dialogue and discussion. It's a mix of usually investors and operators, which is really helpful to drive and helps who some of your challenges. It's a mix of people who have a vested interest and independent people usually. And so it's, you know, it's it takes an effort to put this group together and you know, manage those dynamics. But ultimately, the idea is that you will be leveraging that. And, you know, very often in the life of the company, yeah,

Roger Brookes  5:04  

Good, good. So Oern back us up to the big picture of, of a board that, because you've seen some of the exits? What does this what's the big picture look like of a board that seems to be driving towards a successful exit versus other boards set? How I don't know, I don't want to say spin their wheels. But what's different about it?

Oern Stuge  5:27  

Well, if you take a big company listed company, they would say it's corporate governance. But for smaller companies, I would say the board is very much a call on the strategy with the CEO. And the board should actually look out for all stakeholders. And that's sort of when you have looking out for all the stakeholders to kind of try to build a higher level of consensus, a higher value for all and building upon what Angela said, I think, you know, a chairman, for example, should, you know really be, you know, complimentary with the CEO, and really help out, for example, you know, introductions to people that have done things before very good consultants, like an HR consultant, and any other person like Roger Brooks, for example, or, you know, typical people that have seen the movies before they know what works. And, you know, it's good to learn from mistakes, but it's even better to avoid them. And that's where the board comes in. Wanting

Roger Brookes  6:35  

Once you go, keep going with that, once there's Most boards, early stage boards seems like they don't they do not have an independent board chair. So the group functions of investors, sometimes there's an independent there. But what's your experience? Once the company has an independent chair? How does it operate differently than without one? Or what are the problems that seem to happen frequently when you don't have a good independent board chair? Well,

Oern Stuge  7:05  

yeah, as I said, the board should be looking out for all stakeholders. If you haven't, you know, investor representatives, well, they paid for by their friend tend to be biased. So it is very helpful to have an independent to try to orchestrate that in the right direction. So that's one key principle. And yeah, I think that's the key principle of care.

Roger Brookes  7:31  

And Pepe, who's got all sorts of global experiences. Think he's, I'm thinking specifically, especially of companies in Europe, med tech companies, and you're telling me about the importance or does it matter? If they have a? Can they have a European centric board should have a global board? What's, what's the importance or difference between those? Yeah,

Jose (Pepe) Calle Gordo  7:53  

yeah, glad to be here. This group of friends. I think today, there is really no regional company. Even if you're in Europe, you're in the US, you're in Israel, you have to think global. And so the challenge with a European centric board is that they're missing the views of house look to be if you will live in the United States. And I take it even one step further, what what it is to live in Asia, or what it is to live in Japan, or China, and even Asia is very different from country to country. So when, when people like me, they haven't had an opportunity to live in many countries. When I was in Europe, I was very European centric, when I was in the US, euros far away. And when I was living in Singapore, Asia was actually the most important thing that you can think of, is another question is how do you translate that to the mindset of a don't need to be Junior CEO or, or, or midsize company CEO that has not had those experiences. So then you have a way to complement those experiences by either the chairman, or bringing some selected mix of, of board members. Now, in smaller companies, they investors decide who the board member is, sometimes you have a chance to influence because inside the investment, there are different partners and investment teams. So you can also say listen, perhaps this partner is better suited for this board, or this observer is better suited compared to other but again, you have a little bit less as a CEO, you have less ability to influence that and then plays the role of independent board members. So we're very centric European board, you will want probably want to have an American. If you're thinking of expansion in China, you will want to have some angle there. So again, is looking for the right balance of experiences.

Oern Stuge  9:55  

Then if I may build on that, you know, all startups in the Medtech for you to think they are global from day one. Yeah. And then you need to think accordingly. So,

Jose (Pepe) Calle Gordo  10:06  

And even if the strategy, let's say, you think about the company right now, more and more companies are restarted with a US centric strategy, because the European MDR system is still unknown, still a little bit on the unknown. And I don't think that settle more and more companies that started with an AFS. And they are a European based companies, okay, how are you approaching a European centric, it doesn't need to be based in the US, maybe you want to move to us in the future. But you definitely need to have the mindset.

Roger Brookes  10:36  

And just to build on, you know, a lot of people are concerned about MB MDR, here in Europe. But if you keep your focus, like Oern said, You're a global company, you build a global organization, your headquarters is here in Europe, and you just pull different levers. So it's going to be all right.

Jose (Pepe) Calle Gordo  10:55  

You know, one thing that, for example, I one of the companies that I'm involved with, is from Israel, in Israel, as we all know, is, is really a center of innovation. But it's also small, and it's far away. And, and you have the CEO, younger young CEO, who, who lived the beginning of the company, and then when the when the company moved to the US pivotal trial, she moved to New York, she have lived for two years in New York, now the trial is finished. Now she needs to think about expanding commercialization in Europe. So she moved back to Israel and hire some people in Europe. So you also need to have the flexibility that is not just one central area, and then you'll need to live there. Yeah,

Oern Stuge  11:37  

Absolutely. I have, for example, that one successful company, which is French, and France, you know, come up with a lot of innovation, as we know, one of the best innovative companies in the world, in my opinion. There, we have the CEO, based in Boston, and the CFO based in Boston, the company's French.

Anne Osdoit  11:57  

And I would add that, you know, beyond the globe capability aspects, you know, the, it's also the role of your board are one of them, their mandate is to help you think bigger, you know, I, as a CEO of Moon Surgical, I have my lead investor, you know, and sitting on the board, tell me, you know, my job is to add one zero to your ambition, and I will always be pushing for that extra zero. And I think that's another aspect, it's having people who are, you know, very much committed and engaged to what you're doing, but also, you know, not into the daily difficulties and challenges and can keep you focused on the, you know, on the ultimate target and help you, you know, basically means maintain that ambition and grow it over the years.

Roger Brookes  12:47  

So, and once you want to build on that a little bit around the role of the independent director, and it really feels like most series A companies I see don't have independent director how, how can that be changed? What What should the the CEO raising funds be thinking about as it relates to an independent? And how do they get there?

Anne Osdoit  13:11  

That's a great question. And I think the CEO can be very proactive with that, you know, as as a, as a CEO, I'd rather pick my independent board member than have it imposed by incoming investors or have it, you know, you know, suggested, and I think, you know, if you're the CEO of a company, and you turn to your board and say, hey, you know, we're going to find this incredible addition to the board, who has, you know, this and that skill set, which will complement yours, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't agree, frankly. And I think it's a sign of maturity from the CEO to be doing that. And, you know, I would encourage all CEOs to actually do that before they start fundraising massively, because it will help them, you know, basically have, you know, someone to discuss with, During the challenging times, around fundraising, it will help I think, you know, whether slide deck and having someone independent is, you know, someone the investors can call for feedback on the CEO and on the company. And you'll have also, I think, more latitude and who you pick,

Roger Brookes  14:26  

Do they need to put it in the term sheet about desires? Or it's built in right away?

Anne Osdoit  14:33  

If you're looking for an independent board member or several at a time your your fundraising, yes, it should absolutely be discussed and in a term sheet for one very simple reason, which is that there's an equity grant to the independent board members and so a diluted effect, which is well worth, you know, the, the addition, but it can happen at any time during the life of the company. Again, I think, you know, between two fundraising events, you can turn to your board and say Just that you need an additional skill set. And anyone reasonable would agree with that. Yeah, if

Oern Stuge  15:05  

If I may build on that, because it clearly I said, I think it's the chairman and CEO to be complimentary. And clearly a chairman can, you know, help a lot in fundraising, you know, trust relationship, like we heard from Antoine yesterday, you call certain people, and that's what a good Chairman does, you know, reach out to this, this, this and that. And then suddenly, you have very strong introduction when you come in as CEO. And that typically helps significantly,

Jose (Pepe) Calle Gordo  15:35  

No one was going to add on the new independent that, you know, sometimes there is a little bit of fear, when the CEO proposed an independent is that his friend, her friend, we're going to change the dynamics of the board. So I, when I was a CEO, and I identified that there was a need for independent board members, I think is good to start from the concept of is not that I don't want a job, I want John and my board know, I need this skill. I need a I need a product skill, or a product development skill, or an r&d skill or a something that complements me and my team. And I hear two or three potential candidates right now, like I have my February, but I also have the experience of CEOs. And I have a very couple of examples where the CEO would like to have one person in the war, and that automatically, somehow push push the investors out because there's trying to think about all kinds of combinations of, of, you know, prefer person not necessarily looking after the company, but maybe looking after the CEO. So I think thinking about how you do that smartly. Identify what are the skill sets that are missing, get alignment from the chairman, and and propose it to the board as we need to have this. And now here's a few names. Maybe you have other names, let's bring this kill, not just focus on one particular person.

Roger Brookes  17:02  

So why don't you tell us the cardiolux story where we're worked with Anne to, to help help the CEO and do something fun on the board? Tell us about that. And its implications to the company?

Anne Osdoit  17:19  

Sure. So yeah, so I was very fortunate to be an angel investor and long standing board member at a company called Cardiolux, which is a French company doing an AI solution for ECG interpretation. It's a company that was recently acquired by Philips, and is currently being integrated. And I had different positions on this board initially represented, the angel stayed on when, you know, traditional VCs came on, because I was a known entity, I guess, and they liked it, and then ultimately switched to representing the management team and the founders, you know, because I was pretty close with them. So I was together with the CEO representing the founders. And we raised, we raised money, we got an a syndicate of VCs, it was not unusual now to have both med tech and tech investors because it's a digital health company. And that in itself creates, I think, some challenges in terms of alignments and expectations. But we had nobody on the board from the US. And that was a year, you know, you miss and we had nobody on the board who was an operational person. So, you know, I discussed with the CEO, and we we agreed that it would be, you know, very beneficial to the company to to find someone to add someone and, you know, it was not in the term sheet, it was not in a shareholders agreement. So we went to the board to the investors, which was only investors, and said, Hey, we want to we want to do that. Do you agree in principle, and you know, we'll have to issue additional options, and this is all going to be fine, because we'll find someone great. And they agreed, I think they were very open to finding, you know, guidance, you know, in the US to having also people who had done it before. The tech investors were also I think, particularly interested in having industry experts on board. And we reached out to you, right, and I want you to search and the search process was very structured, you know, as always, we interviewed a number of people and we ended up with three fantastic candidates, right. Very diverse skill sets, but all relevant in a way to the company and all had a good fit with the CEO. And and you know, we were stuck there we were likely to be really like these guys. I mean, especially to our Three, right, so what do we do? And so we went back to the board and said, Hey, like, you know, we actually found two independent board members, you know, and our suggestion is that we bring both of them on, because, you know, they will, they will add this, and this, other guys will add that, and they were very open, of course, interviewed all these candidates, and we did bring on two additional board members. And, you know, it dramatically changed the face of the company, it completely changed the ambition. I mean, literally adding one zero and thinking globally, challenging the CEO a lot on the strategy, but in a good way, in a very, you know, constructive and professional way. And we then embarked on this dual path between A B round and an exit, and, you know, the company was ultimately acquired by Philips, but we would never have, you know, gone through that process and be there today without without these two people on the board.

Jose (Pepe) Calle Gordo  21:07  

Now, there are, I mean, the whole idea of, you know, having been an operator for 30 plus years, when, when I joined my first board, and actually it was, together with within we were we were like, Okay, what's my role here, and, and very quickly, you realize that the CEO sometimes can be pretty lonely out there. Because he, he wants to sort of double check that everything is doing is in the right direction. And if he talks to the investors in a very sort of open way, he may be seen as a weakness. And so he wants to have kind of a partners in crime. And I think the two, the two people that best can achieve that is the independent chair. Because it's like isn't, was what happened in Vegas stays in Vegas. But we're gonna make sure that I know exactly what's what's going on. And I can help you and you can help me, and then will we get the best way to the board. And the second one is the independent director. So when you say challenge, I think the independent director should be personality wise, also should be blown away that they provide help. And you say diplomatic way, and can be challenging, but never seen as the fear from the bore, otherwise, the CEO will close. And then at the end, we can all kind of dynamics, but if it's the right personality with the right set of experiences, it just amplify what the CEO wants to accomplish.

Oern Stuge  22:41  

Yeah. And I think, to be a CEO is actually a lonely job. Yeah. And it's important to be aware of that, because you need motivation. You need feedback, you need the sense of support, starting off what Anne said, you know, it's many CEOs don't want a board, it's kind of a problem, etc. No, we need to turn it around. And what just one practice that I like to introduce is that they have a non executive session after every board meeting, so that all the directors can give their feedback. And then I, for example, then share, I share that feedback with the CEO. And you know, and that's typically supportive and, you know, constructive feedback, if there's something that needs to be changed, and that, you know, takes the tension down, and people then suddenly, before the board becomes something really supportive, something very helpful, then then appreciate it. Yeah,

Roger Brookes  23:44  

 Okay, so I'm gonna I'm gonna look to the audience. Is anybody working on a good question for this group?

Anne Osdoit  23:52  

Of boards that I share with PIPA, which is, you know, I've seen they help the CEO deliver difficult decisions, right. I mean, and that's what you need to do as a chairman. I mean, as a CEO, you're stuck between conflicting priorities and interest, you're trying to keep your team happy, you're different management members happy. You're trying to keep your investors happy. And, you know, some of these decisions are tricky. And, and so you know, you you are here to help him like, get past that and provide an incredible relief, because he knows he's backed and these decisions, and it's the right thing to do for the company. It's not the right thing to do for a or z or, you know, specific people. So I think that's a great value add on the board.

Jose (Pepe) Calle Gordo  24:44  

And, you know, in some, some places have been in a couple of boards where there were no term, there will no chair, historical, we don't need it. And I say, Well, maybe, you know, if I'm independant, why don't why don't we do sort of like, interim chair to see the value or known return chair, but do the job of the chair. And then suddenly, very quickly, I think we need a chair. And that happens early in two boards that they were like, also another thing is, in US companies, sometimes there are no chairs, unless they're public, and they need to have a chair. And and sometimes you have the live investor become the chair, I don't think that's healthy. Because then it becomes too much biased. Yeah. And at the end, it's a little bit of a cell phone, you drink your own Kool Aid, you know, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. And sometimes the answer is now, what the lead investor says is a combination of other things. And so driving this, this decision to incorporate an independent chair, we're talking a lot about the chair, sometimes you have to go step by step, because people need to be convinced, and maybe the concept of having an interim chair while you're looking for the right chair, because it takes time, I have seen these in two boards. And at the end, now we have a we have a good chair, independent chair, that is really complimentary to the seal.

Roger Brookes  26:16  

Once you elaborate, as we spoke about about that board share, and the importance of of not taking sides, but yet still driving results.

Jose (Pepe) Calle Gordo  26:27  

Whenever I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly, okay. And you cannot say names because there might be here this is recorded. So we have to be very careful here. But but there is an element of a role of an independent, board aware, investors are not aligned. They're just just not aligned. I don't know ultimately, who will be right or wrong. And, and I helped bring, we brought an independent chair. In my first pitch, I was the interim chair. So it was one of these things. And you know, interesting enough, although I'm not truly independent, in our company, the CEO was looking at is looking at me as independent because I was behaving independent. And that's why I was entering chair, when I brought the real chair, I said, Man, you have a problem, we have a problem, because there are some things that need to be fixed here, the worst thing you can do is to choose camps. Because even if we believe we are right, and the other group believe is not right, your job is to Can I bring a solution to the table, and I can help you there. But at the end of the day, your role as an independent chair is critical. Fast, fast, fast track, three mounds. Now the pressure cook is is down, the temperature is down. Now 100% align, but we are 70% aligned, which is good enough for the CEO not to have to worry about the board. And that's only been possible, because there was a chair, because it was an independent chair. And because he has an he has been played both both parts. It's an example. Yeah. Good. You also have the other example where everything is happy family, and everybody is 100% aligned. And actually, then, I think probably more the example that we're talking about, where my role as chair is more of really working with the CEO. Because the board is aligned. And there you spend more energy with the CEO and also with the external parties.

Anne Osdoit  28:48  

Yeah, I'll give you an example. You know, I am, you know, in a company where we have, of course, very important discussions with our most critical supplier. Right. And so we're establishing a master supplier agreement with these guys and negotiating hard with them. At the same time we are having strategic discussions about potentially taking ownership in a company and then potentially doing a structured deal over time. You know, it's very hard to have one single person carrying both discussions with that supplier, right? Because, again, there are conflicting interests between the two paths. And no matter what you need the master supplier agreement in place, and you need to, you know, basically negotiate transfer price on that. But you're also very interested in securing, you know, a potential structure deal down the way so we have the CEO during the MSA thing, the chairman during the strategic discussions, and that's really the only way to move both forwards in parallel. And I think some of these tactics are also only possible if you have the right board composition.

Roger Brookes  29:57  

Well, let's move to exits. and say again? 

Anne Osdoit  30:02  

That's Oern. 

Roger Brookes  30:04  

Say what? Yeah, what can the board be doing behind the scenes or even in front of the scenes that can help drive to, to those exit points?

Oern Stuge  30:19  

You know, there, I'm sure there are lots of opinions about this topic. I personally have one thing that I like to do all the time, from day one to basically challenge the CEO and the, you know, board members never bothered to find a clear path to exit, really, you know, combining that knowledge of the, let's say, the strategic landscape, exactly the dynamics, how it works, what works will not work, where is the kind of unmet need or opportunity, and know exactly where to put this particular value proposition that the companies represent? If you know that, that tends to align everyone drive priorities, and then you get focused action, which is good. I mean, think takes time, there will be this and it will be at that. But I have found that if you have a very clear plan, that tends to drive to the, you know, value generation quicker, you should not only have one plan, you should have a, Plan B, Plan B, and so on. So and also the ones that are under your own control, like, for example, in the IPO market tend to be open, you have that as a possibility. But a clear plan from day one, I think is recommended.

Jose (Pepe) Calle Gordo  31:48  

I've seen that also. Sometimes, you know, you have companies that and I have experienced where you lose a company that you could see a standalone company, let's say has legs, no. And whether it gets acquired or whether it goes to an IPO both are reasonable, good options. Then you also have the companies that you talk to the CEO, the beginning say What's your path, oh, we're going to be an IPO. Because there's no way you're going to be an IPO. This is impossible. And if you're an IPO, it will be a failure. Because after the first quarter in the second quarter, you're gonna have this glitch here that glitch here, you're gonna miss two quarters, you gone in the third quarter? So a reality check of how the product fits in the space of the large market? Can it be both? Or? Or is it a product that at the end needs a home? And if it needs a home? Then the question is it goes back to you? Where is the universal buyers? And how do you is strategically, you know, over there like, Hey, when are you going to buy me, right? But there are ways to engage along the way, in different capacities, to in a way be on their radar by but I could be in your home, but I could also be in another home now be happy in both. And that create also a little bit of a small tension that ultimately when you understand who is your universal buyers? And how do you engage them. Also another thing, for example, we're doing with one company, let's say you're in a cardiovascular space, the physicians will love your product. These physicians are also advisors to all of these potential buyers. So it doesn't make it doesn't it's not as stupid so that you engage with the physicians that are going to put a word for you, in the right room at the right time.

Roger Brookes  33:42  

Exactly influence in the right people. And I was thinking about last night at our conversation with Antoine and if you look at investments that that Sofinnova made, but other venture people have made, it tends they tend to go to people they trust or people they trust come to them with something. And that influences them. And the same with buyers. If I think they're really good CEOs seem to find a way to figure out who the Influence Points are. And it's not necessarily business development, keep business development up to date, but figure out the surgeon or the physician that influences them and then get in front of them and win them over. And to get them to whisper back to the company. And that's how the transactions tend to happen. Right.

Oern Stuge  34:28  

Perhaps I should make one qualified to my original comment, because of course the company depends what kind of position the company is. And you know if it's broad, that's one thing. That if it's specific, it's another one. The best example I have is one where we co founded a company. Two years later, we sold it at 99x. Yeah, then he knew exactly where to put it. And that's not the sapience M three at Edwards Yeah. So 99 days assuming all earnouts

Roger Brookes  35:04  

Okay, so I think we've got, we got one minute left. We have any questions? We've got one, two questions anymore.

Audience Question  35:13  

Hello. Hi, that works Macolm. I'm a chief medical officer at X Point medical, and I'm a consultant, cardiologist advanced heart center. Thanks for a great presentation. We're just about to close our Series A, hopefully, the new new year and we have an executive chairman who's doing both positions, we totally appreciate what you've said, and we're fully aligned with that. But how do I go about recruiting the best chairman? Who's going to get us those 99x that we're after? 

Oern Stuge  35:42  

Speak to Roger.

Jose (Pepe) Calle Gordo  35:43  

Yeah. Firstly, first question, I talked to a Roger, if he cannot do it, then then find somebody that is really not just necessarily, you need to have the experience to understand what is the make? What is the experience? So it's not just the normal recruitment for a position in a company. So you need to have that expertise, you know, so which which Chairman's, have you recruited recently? What is your track record? Who have they been successful, you know,

Roger Brookes  36:14  

And I would say, study your space, look at the exits that have happened over the last decade, and look who's been on the board, and then network with that board to see who the driver was behind it. Because big just because the board doesn't mean they did anything, or just because they were the CEO, they may not have done anything. So you have to network and find out the influencers of that process. Yeah,

Anne Osdoit  36:37  

And write specifications for what you're expecting for that, from that person know what exact skill set and you know, this person will exist somewhere.

Jose (Pepe) Calle Gordo  36:46  

Each CEO requires a different Chairman.

Roger Brookes  36:49  

Okay, I think we can do one more question without

Audience Question  36:52  

So as you what's the ideal number on the board in the mix up in terms of business acumen, scientific question number one, and number two, on terms of finding that talent? How much of that networking inside versus going to an external firm? And whose point on identifying those that talent?

Roger Brookes  37:12  

Okay, let me let me hit the first one you guys get the second one. The first one is, is is the networking find, find your space network to the right people, I highly recommend people with early stage experiences that have driven growth in early stage company, the people from large cap, they speak nice, but and they're very eloquent. But they may not be down and dirty, and figure out all the nuances of needing to happen. So go go with smaller company experiences,

Anne Osdoit  37:43  

The number of people really depends on you know, the company, right, because the investor syndicate and how many representatives they have on the board will drive also how much independence you want to add to that. So it's very different. Yeah. But I would say in terms of representation, you want geography you want operations versus investment experience, at least right.

Jose (Pepe) Calle Gordo  38:07  

And I think also on the VC side, where you have like two or three large investors, it's okay to have two or three large investors. If you have 20 investor, you can have a representative for each one, it will be a nightmare. So try to also nail it down maybe three, maximum three people that represent investors, one or two independents, the chairman and the and the CEO. That's it. And, and if you really need one of these independents could be a medical person if you're really involved in the medical science, so it could be a medical person that brings that

Roger Brookes  38:38  

And I like experienced operators, those that had been the CEO before and seeing all the challenges that lie ahead. They can also be a great confident mentor. And when they we have a problem, they'll go to the rest of the board. So you need to listen to the CEO there, right. And here's why. And so they need somebody with that strength. Okay, so I think we're over our time. Thank you very much.