Corporate and VC Investments in Emerging Ecosystems: the Good, the Bad, and the Potential Exuberance of Barcelona | LSI Europe '23

Transcription

Josep Ll. Sanfeliu  0:04  
Thank you very much. Thanks LSI, thank you everyone for being here today. It's like, it's a challenge to finish this week. I guess you're tired. You're flying back in tonight or tomorrow. But I mean, take advantage of the last minutes. It's been a pleasure to be here with you guys and hopefully be here in the future. I'm Josep Sanfeliu. I'm the managing partner and co founder with my partner, Clara, who's here also, this afternoon. We are a local VC, investing in medtech, digital health and biotech we help take across the world. We are locals I've been in the industry for 15 years, my background is pharma IP. But I was a VC in biotech also for some time. And I'm we focusing very much in in med tech diagnostics and digital health health tech in a way. Barcelona is a good place to be I wanted to describe a little bit what are what is the potential. So the idea of this by the sea chat was basically to bring up some of the topics that I'm sure Carlos and Louise will share their views also because of their background and international responsibilities in their companies. But before I jump into some of the data to put some context on what is Barcelona and what is its potential in developing new businesses around here in medtech, and digital health, etc, I'm gonna pass the mic on a word to my colleague so they can introduce themselves, we get an idea of who's here in the states now, and then I'll come back to this data. And then we can engage in this conversation. I'm happy to get your questions and comments also. Thanks.

Louise Warme  1:38  
Thank you very much Jaron. And again, big congratulations to everyone who's been arranging this week. And I'll send a special thanks to to Henry, who's been supporting us a lot and getting the word out about our recent launch. Thank you very much to you and your team. What has just been launched is called We Venture Capital, which is the corporate venture capital arm of Werfen, which is one of the large diagnostics companies here in the area. I'll go top down, I'll start with Werfen. So Werfen is Catalonia original company owned actually buy a family from the start founded in the 60s, they grew for a very long time through acquisitions and had the philosophy of letting companies grow under their own brand, up until two years ago, when we branded everything under Werfen. And by doing so we were probably the best kept secret in diagnostics. All of a sudden, we were a company of 7000 employees worldwide, and a turnover more than 2 billion that were a few heard of, because we had operated under different units. We're a specialist IVD company operating in hemostasis, acute care, autoimmunity. And in March, we did one of the biggest acquisitions and diagnostics this year by acquiring Immucore, which is an American entity, operating in transfusion and transplant, which are very proud to be new business is in its reverse. And that transaction was about 2 billion. But definitely helps my job. I'm leading the corporate venture capital arm, which is an absolute privilege. I'm also had the privilege of setting it up in stealth mode for a year. We have two portfolio companies today, a couple of term sheets signed. And we're now officially launched so we can run under our own flag. We're a small but efficient team, which is absolutely amazing. And we've had the fortune to co invest with wonderful partners such as the service where we work with a local company. Personally, I am a medical doctor. Since this is a bit of an off to work feeling. I'll tell you my personal story in the way it really happened. It's kind of happened to me it wasn't my plan. I'm a medical doctor and meant to be a medical doctor. But when I was going to do my residency in Sweden, where I'm from there was a budget cut and since we have very few private hospitals, but meant that everything stopped. So I ended up doing a biodesign program instead of curling ska, founded a medtech company, became a med tech CEO and did the whole journey from a drawing on a piece of paper to an exit process over seven years. And after that some people in my surroundings said look we've been following you do you want to enter into investments? We would love to have you and that got me into investing That was nine years ago. It's the best non job I've ever had that led me to my favorite job, which is what I'm doing now. So I'm one of those stories that kind of happened. That turned out really well.

Carlos Nueno  5:18  
Thank you. My name is Carlos Nueno. So I am President for International for Teladoc Health, Teladoc Health is a an American company based out of New York. We are leaders in the space of telehealth virtual care, as well as managing chronic conditions. With medical devices as well. I run the international business, which for an American company means everything outside the US, in my case, including Canada as well. Teladoc took the decision to start here in Barcelona, back in 2018, through an acquisition of a company called Advanced Medical which I was a co founder in that company. And so that's one of those examples where a company that had grown here from Barcelona that became global was sold to a multinational, in this case in the US, and the international headquarters became located here in Barcelona. So as a company, what we do three things mainly, virtual care with patients and connecting patients and doctors, we completed 60 million virtual consultations recently 21 million last year, so it's grown a lot, especially as you can imagine over COVID. We do that through primary care physicians with mental health with a specialty care, chronic conditions. Mental Health, which is becoming one of the biggest areas of demand of the company. We have a hospital business as well, where we provide tele telemedicine services for hospitals in the form of both software and hardware. We do things like tele ICU, where we connect hospitals that have ICU expertise with hospitals, more regional hospitals that don't have those capabilities. And we provide the software in and the how hardware in the form of devices and robots. Will that in the US with 60% of the hospitals there. But also internationally, we have great partnerships, partnerships around the world here in Europe, in Germany, specifically with Wishard, it is a great example. And then we have this chronic care management business, which comes from an acquisition that we did three years ago, Livongo. It's a company based out of the US. And that provides a combination of the medical device with sharing the data, and then the virtual care capability so that we can manage the clinical condition of patients. We do that with 1 million patients in the US and we are starting to do this international as well. And maybe I'll leave it here because I think Joe, you have more questions, right? Yeah,

Josep Ll. Sanfeliu  8:10  
I just read that before you guys go shopping, or eating or having a lot of plans for the last day in Barcelona, which I'm sure there's lots of things to do. I wanted to bore you a little bit with data, some some numbers. Because sometimes we are here in the arts, and you've been here spending these days. And you've seen probably many other beautiful places in the city. But if you look at the data, recent data published by the Catalan region of of the industry, industry, healthcare that that comprises close to 1400 companies. So it's a bunch of companies. Most of them I would say 400 are registered under the under the category of biotech. The rest, there's like 120 Classical pharma, but then as medtechs have of those 1400, according to the report this year 2022. So two to three, maybe a little bit bigger. medtech companies account for nearly 20% of those which have close to 250 companies, digital health companies that are based here accounted for 212. So sometimes when you put in perspective, you could say that biopharma in the area holds for 400 More or less companies in Barcelona. And then you have an additional 400 companies that are healthtech companies, digital some some of them are more AI some more big data, more censoring technologies. Some of those companies obviously are invested by Asabys, not all of them just a few but hopefully the best ones then obviously have the accessory industry suppliers and everything else. So that gives you an idea on where is this coming from? Probably from the amount of activity that comes out from let me give you some data here also again 20 University Hospitals. is well regarded to hospital for oncology research, some bow is a good hospital. Also, if you look at their publications and peer reviewed journal publications, 20 hospitals 40 research centers, actually, one of them is just behind that building the Center for genomic regulation, hospital Mar, great places a place with 500 Researchers, 50% of them are international researchers. But you have many other centers where it's 40 research centers which are around the city. So just just a glimpse of, of the potential exuberance. And when I was I suggested this title, which is a bit, let's say bullish, it's a potential exuberance because you look at the amount of people working in such a small place, we are one by 1.7 million inhabitants in the city. And you have such an amount of activity going on in healthcare research, clinical research. And then if you look at the research in itself, I was taking a look at clinical trials of golf. And you look at the clinical trials done in by country, Spain is regarded to be according to the bulk number, in 2020 to 1600 clinical studies conducted in Spain, 75% of them are based are done in Barcelona, in Catalonia, but mostly Barcelona, of course. So this is an Spain accounts, and Spain is the 15th is the fifth country in the world, in number of registered trials are in front of the FDA. Number one is the US second is Canada, France, the United Kingdom, and then goes to Spain. 75% of those is actually happening here. If you go to publications, per million of inhabitants, Catalonia is the fifth in Europe, after Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, and Netherlands. And if you look at 2020, or European Research Council grants, it's also ranking number five, the question remains, why is that not transformed so easily? And believe me, we are we've been in the business of venture and investing in companies and working with the tech transfer offices of research centers and hospital. Why does that not translate so easily into company building? There's a lot of companies coming from abroad, foreign entrepreneurs that pick up the city to startup companies. But it's not easy to do have these companies, you know, the ones that are local. So that was a little bit that debate they wanted to open. Because the good is that we have all these capacities and potential and critical mass of research and entrepreneurial activities. We have business schools like ESA, I guess how they're so but new have the incumbents 2 billion size company out of 10 minutes drive from here, you have Alameda, you have refolds all these big companies and med tech companies also established in Barcelona. But there's like a lack of connection in the dimension of the amount of companies that are created, if you compare the other research and attraction of the industry established in Teladoc other music here in Barcelona. So what is missing in the middle right to startup companies and finance them and help their potential? So I just wanted to open the debate, with Louise from your experience in the Nordics worldwide in previous jobs now at werfen. What do you think it's missing? What do you think it's, it's, it's it so good as I just reflected in the data. But what is missing for the next thing to become a success right in the middle ground is scaling up in the starting up?

Louise Warme  13:24  
It's a good question. And I love that you invited me to this topic because it made me having to read up a little bit. Something said there is one new company established or created every week in the life science space here in Catalonia. That's that's not that I think that's pretty impressive. I think was Barcelona is also third best startup have been in, in Europe now. Which I'm not very happy about because that used to be Stockholm in Sweden, where I'm from. We've gone down all the way to number five. And we come from a climate that we think is very innovative and strong. But Barcelona is definitely doing something better. And and to be fair if I tried to make the comparison, I think we have more structure up in the Nordics as far as support organizations and accelerators where we have a different IP setup where people who work at universities actually own their own IP doesn't belong to the university so we never have to license out. But despite that Barcelona is beating us on beating us good by now. There has to be some sort of self driving people here I find because I think we have some really good efforts here as far as accelerators go and and catching of innovation but we definitely have more of that, or at least a longer history of doing that in Sweden. And still, you're accelerating much more here, are we I should say it's in some nowadays and an immigrant. I think the most difficult transfer to do is usually from research into companies. Right. And I'd love just a question back to you, Jo, given that you've been here for longer, what is the piece that is missing from researchers? With all those massive centers right here, going into the startups where you guys have been investing for years no?

Josep Ll. Sanfeliu  15:41  
Well, the main disadvantage is that we don't have Spotify that went public. So there was already, you know, put the nordics in the map, right, that it can happen that from our country, that's not the US you can, you know, go public, I'm just as an idea that one of the things, I think it's like, there's a lack of somehow a credibility into building companies, although there's it's not the case, when we invest in companies, we helped building those companies, some of them were presenting here these days. And, of course, Carlos started his own company from Barcelona and succeed. But it's like, sometimes, tech transfer offices are not easy to deal with. This can be discouraging for some entrepreneurs that, you know, they knock on the door for license to start up something and it's like, oh, no, I mean, are you sure, like, I'm not saying this is the response. But my suspicions, I don't sleep in the tech transfer offices. So I don't know what's going on inside the door, and the attitude, but one can be one reason could be that when the lack of financing in early stages, probably the ecosystem doesn't provide still not financing, Asabys is trying its best to also invest seed and Series A, in some cases, especially if they're close in the area. But I really want to hear Carlos, anybody in the audience, you have examples of things that have worked on your countries and and how do you, you know, move things from projects and science, and the potential into companies that really raise a series B of $40 million? I mean, happy to hear those comments with Carlos, what do you think?

Carlos Nueno  17:20  
I think there's, so you're right, I think there's, the future looks very bright, because of the number of startups that you're you see now. And the finance environment that you see now, compared to 20 years, when I started, it's completely changed. So I think we have a bright future in that sense. I would say in the past, what's been lacking, maybe it's the global mentality, it's just, you know, the fact that going abroad as a company, and maybe there's a natural tendency to go to Latin America, but really to go to the bigger markets, whether it is US or whether it is China. And and really two, I think we have the science, we have the research, we have the technical capability, we have the business capability. But in the past, companies have grown to be leaders in the local markets, not too much global leaders, and you need certain mentality to become a global leader. And it's a combination of factors. I think we we have them now. But if you are not in the US, you cannot be a global leader. If you are not in China today, you probably cannot be a global leader. And, and it requires that mentality. And when you see leaders in Europe going global, they are in those markets, they have been bold in taking decisions. But from the US, I'm working for the US American company now and from the US when you see Europe, not Spain, or Barcelona, specifically, but Europe, you see a fragmented region. And it's difficult to understand usually, it's a very interesting market, of course, but compared to the size, the scale, and, and the easy way of doing business in the US, if you have to put $1 you invest that in the US, as opposed to in Europe. And so that's something we as Europeans, we need to continue to work for, to make sure that we make things easier in all centers, from regulations to to absolutely everything just to make sure that the business and the market here is attractive enough so that companies can grow become leaders and also attract investment from from other places.

Josep Ll. Sanfeliu  19:36  
I would like just to share a comment. I think there are some many companies that we're presenting at LSI is here and we see many companies from emerging regions in Europe that have a lot of potential because they have similar potential in terms of research right, I want to see the regions because it would be qualifying or disqualifying them depending on what is emerging right? But they will I remember some years ago when, because the hard time that entrepreneurs have to raise money from emerging areas that might be, especially in a context where they the science is very much distributed in worldwide, you know, in different in different countries, and they can do great research. But the company is based not in a usual geography for investors to pay attention. It's hard because I mean, intrapreneurs have to overcome that conceptual barrier that that region has no potential as a company. And I've sometimes resonates the same way that that happens to me when sometimes I can mention an anecdote some years ago, when I was a VC already, like 10 years ago, I went I we had a portfolio company that was going great. And I was at this one of these JP Morgan meetings, and I was sitting with one of the new bankers who was there. And I started, you know, pitching the company we had invested, we were like, really ambitious, and he's like, What about IPO? And, and he said, Barcelona company IPO, but would you invest money Jamaica, is like, for sorry, for me, Jamaica deserves all the respect. But he the guy said is like, his concept at the time, I'm saying 10 years, 12 years ago, 13 years ago, the hard time entrapreneurs sometimes have to justify the potential because of just a concept of a region you mentioned, Stockholm was, I know Barcelona is coming up trying to find its place. But 1015 years ago, Barcelona was like a place where we played Olympic Games, and we go to the beach, and we have great wine. So but that is changing. But sometimes I understand that companies in scaling up, we have to work against sometimes the especially European companies, I think European companies have have hard time and if you look at the IPOs, and access to public market by European companies, they have a hard time we have the European. We have AIM at some point. Swiss WX. In Switzerland, it's like a fragmented market capital market again, but allowing to go global. From a public market perspective, it's, it's beating the concept that you are stealing, in an emerging, ever promising land of research on potential, right, which cannot be the case.

Louise Warme  22:15  
But the size of the population does help. I mean, you can definitely start a company or go global eventually, especially if you're investing in it, and you need a big scale up and telling one thing I have paid attention to the last year is that when we go to conferences in Europe, with startups, we see very few Spanish companies who go and pitch outside of Spain. So that may be one thing to consider. I mean, if you're Swedish like me, like there's no point of starting a company only in Sweden, because they're telling me in the population, you can scale this far, then you just have to make it international right away. So when you're investing starting from Sweden, you have to have an international plan, pretty much from day one. Spain is much bigger as far as population goes. And I don't know if that has been both the benefit and the hindrance in a way that you've been able to establish here and get a much farther before you even have to think about what happens when we go new language, new country, cross the sea new regulations, as you mentioned.

Carlos Nueno  23:25  
Yeah, I think so. But also, as I said, I think you're starting to see this change and very dynamic environment here. Maybe the the other point is, as you mentioned, the stock market, right, I think that drives a lot of the investment decisions. And you're right here we have a very fragmented stock market in Europe in general. And maybe in Spain, we don't have a renowned stock market, either, right? So when you think about Europe, you think about one, two or three, but we are not in that list. And so if you want to grow, you need a healthy easy stock market and and recognize especially recognize the other one would be attracting leaders into Barcelona. We've seen great examples lately and over the last years, multinationals that are investing in the city that are creating their own hubs in the city. I think once you see leaders in each industry stablishing decision points in the city is when others will invest as well will create you will create more of a competitive landscape as well, you you bring talent that will allow to take those decisions to a next level. So I think we are seeing all these we've seen decisions from companies like Blackstone investing in a huge hub here and just recently we took the decision to bring Some of our US r&d to Barcelona as well on the data science, for example. So all these, I think these in the in the right direction, it's still there are things that we must do taxes, maybe another thing that we could speak about. And certainly regulations in my world regulations is everything we are in healthcare, and most of it healthcare services. And so when you when you think that, you know, in telemedicine a doctor here in Spain can prescribe e-prescribe, but we cannot deliver the medication to the home of the patient. It's illegal. And you go to London, and this is perfectly fine. You go to Dubai, and you can do that. But you go to France, and there's a different, completely different regulation you go to Portugal is another one. So it's very difficult for a global company in our world to scale in such a complex environment.

Louise Warme  25:57  
I sense I have to ask, though, because one thing I stumbled upon speaking about regulation, that was a very positive surprise to me, it was the concept of entrepreneurship visa. Apparently you can get a visa if you're an entrepreneur and one establish itself is fine. Let's target it for people. I thought I was brilliant.

Josep Ll. Sanfeliu  26:18  
I don't exactly know that I really should I see here. I don't know if there's a Barcelona & Partners. It's an organization that's helping entrepreneurs and investment come over Barcelona, but they will have probably the information. But yes, there's a coolness there. But I mean, there's right there are some regimes that have changed in the last years. As you know, some. I mean, there are some tax policies that is precisely attracting Italy has it for researchers. Here we have it since last year that if you are an entrapreneur, before it was like these are tax regimes that I think are available in your country Spanish in Europe, we're trying to tries to repatriate talent into your own countries, I'm sure there's examples in the in the room in Barcelona is basically it used to be tax lien, let's say, alleviation if you were hired as an employee, by a company, and typically that was the case in pharma research, because you hired international talent, that meant a good decrease in the tax. But that was extended because of a law that was changed a year ago, actually Barcelona & Partners and Morocco while I was involved also in that, and it's now decreasing also attacks if you're an intrapreneur that has a right here, and you are not you know you're not hired by anyone is you that's establishing your business. And you're not actually hired by anyone, you just pick up Barcelona, or you're you're bringing your own network to build a company or to invest in companies right here. So but this is good. And it's a way to attract talent, so they don't get affected by the tax differentiations, which is another fragment patient problem in Europe. But sometimes I feel there's it's also about mentality and culture. And it was mentioned before i i see entrapreneurs from Israel, just to mention an example that come over here. And they want to you know, from from Israel, probably because of their situation they died. So like they they think globally already, because it's obvious that they need to think global No, and many other regions in the world in which the global reach is a must. Right. And probably some of these established, you know, 2000 year old cities like Barcelona. Probably they've been used to get people visit us. And I was, and we are used to that. And hopefully LSI visit us again next year. But but in any case, yeah, I don't think I don't know if there's more time for we still have like some minutes. But I would love to hear this people in the audience that want to share their perspectives on on what's missing, or what's your experience with Barcelona or Spain or, or in your own countries, things that you have been doing differently that can help us getting more perspective on these topics.

Louise Warme  29:10  
I'll take the opportunity to tell you about two interesting projects that we've seen. That may partially answered the question. Because I know in Sweden, we had a bit of a fragmented support system. And then AstraZeneca decided not to keep one of their facilities in the very south, which then was transferred from absolute disaster and a lot of people lost their jobs into something called Medicom Village. I'm sure a lot of people you are in, in the space have heard about it. And in essence, what they did is that instead of having the support system in different units, they just bought the land and not knowing how well it was going to go in the beginning that put all kinds of life science companies they're focusing on SMEs and startups. But also a lot of service providers. And that created like it own landscape of its own. So it was not so much that you had to book meeting but the right people sort of ran into each other, just to go into work and being at work or Yes, going to the same lunch restaurant. And we're setting up something similar in Gothenburg, where I'm from also AstraZeneca had some extra ground, where they set up first hub, where the incubated companies in the life science area, not necessarily to acquire them, but just to provide a space, which is then grown to a whole area where they're building 4000 square meters now was called the Goko Life Science village. And more and more people, what we see is that people are coming from all over the world to establish in this area, which is not too big, but it's like a couple of blocks of life science only. And I think that just bringing everyone together, kind of like we all know, it sort of makes people interact in a way that it's not planned, but still can spin out a lot of positive things. 

Josep Ll. Sanfeliu  31:05  
I think there's

Shobha Parthasarathi  31:11  
I mean, I'm happy to provide a comment. It's just a comment, not a question, really. I've lived in several different ecosystems within the US. I currently live in Boston, but I live in North Carolina, I've lived in Texas, Ohio, and several other places. But what I want to say is, in order to create an ecosystem, that's really sort of that's viable, and long enough for long term viability, you need alignment all the way from top to bottom, which is, which means the government academia, and as we have startups, all of them have to be aligned in wanting to do this, and creating the resources that you would need for your startups to flourish. So I mean, I can give you an example, at least that first million or two that the startups need before the investors like us would come in there, you need to be able to provide that locally, because that's the hardest thing to come by. And that's the where you'll have the most impact. And so if you can create sort of resources, where you can provide that to them, along with some guidance, that really helps your startups a not have to look outside very soon until they're actually ready. And that results in more success and, you know, potentially more impact. So that's one thing I would say is, is a big factor. And I think, even though I live in Boston, I would say North Carolina has probably done a much better job of that by providing loans to their startups, etc, taking more risks, and being willing to take that risk than even Boston has. So that's one, I would say, you know, if you're trying to create an ecosystem that you want to help your startups survive

Josep Ll. Sanfeliu  32:59  
This come in what do you what is your experience now that you mentioned about the alignment and the government? One of the things I always ask myself, What is your experience with that private initial money? So what's the role of angel investing? Because one of the things here in Barcelona is that we don't see those, you know, successful companies and entrepreneurs that made it. I don't see them so much going back into new companies, they move away. I'm talking about healthcare, and also tech, mostly tech, tech, successful entrepreneurs that move away, they just started a hotel business, or they start in real estate, or they move away from their business they know about right. So what what do things that roll in Boston in other areas about that local private business angels and private money in those moments?

Shobha Parthasarathi  33:43  
The angels are usually very focused. The Life Sciences angels focus entirely on your lane. So you've got enough people with money to focus on individual businesses that they don't have to cross pollinate. So in that case, it's a question of just a volume, you know, there's enough there. But the other thing, which not kind of doesn't have Boston has is just because of the proximity because they're so small, Cambridge, Boston, there's a lot more random collisions that happen. And that's another big thing. I mean, if you can create an environment of random collisions happening more often, in a more proactive way, strategically, you're more likely to end up in companies that would engage with each other, which otherwise wouldn't happen. And because North Carolina suffers from that the Research Triangle Park is well known. But it's so far apart, you have to drive to places to meet somebody. And it's much better when you can just walk and have lunch and run into someone, which is what happens in Cambridge and Boston. Of course, having universities is probably the first thing because that forces people to come to places because of the good education, which means families are willing to come which means they're willing to work. So that's why I'd say It's alignment on all fronts, you know, academia, industry, government, government has been to be willing to put money into their startups. That first million.

Carlos Nueno  35:10  
I think, Jo, there's also a point about, this is Carlos. There's also a point about the market size. And if you think about just pain, from a healthcare point of view, you have like 17 different regions. Even within one region, you have several buyers. So the budget is not centralized at all. And that's pretty common, in many European countries. There are exceptions, of course, but so if you think the potential by somehow simplifying the, the the procurement within the public health systems that we have, which I think this is an advantage we have compared to the US, we have a health system health care system that clearly delivers better outcomes, we know that it's been published at a much more efficiency rate. Now, that's a clear advantage, we have an elderly population longevity is an issue. So therefore, we will need health care forever. Now, buying and having access to the market is super complicated. So if we would be able to somehow find a way to simplify this, immediately will foster innovation, and companies, of course from around the world, especially from Europe, become global players. And that's something it's dependent on us, doesn't depend on on other markets, right.

Audience Question  36:42  
Yeah, hello, I'm from a startup company in Ireland. And I think I think I would agree, I would agree with the previous speaker that the, the first first, the first, you know, first 500,000, is, that's the hardest part, that's the hardest part to raise, you know, and taking that step from just having an idea to actually having money to put a team together to work on it. And I think, I think we've, I think we've like I think government has lined up quite well, the different supports, you know, so a lot of the time, you'll see a spin out in a university in Ireland, but what will actually have happened there is, the founders will have written the grant spun into the university, and then spun back out again, at the end, and it's quite easy to secure a 5000 Euro research grant in the university. And, and, and, and the CTO office, they understand this, you know, they, they understand that you're going to try to spin this IP. And, and you try to do as best a deal as you can with them on the way out. And you so you're you need to make sure you're you're agreeing. Like you need to make sure you're agreeing to purchase price of the IP, for example, upfront when you spin out university, you know, and so it's very different than the Swedish example is I think it's unique, where you own your own IP. So I think getting people to change that model, I think is the Under challenges with that as well, of course, because then because then the I suppose the researcher has a lot of control over over that IP. And if and if they're not all in agreement, that can be a blocking a blocking factor. And so I think, yeah, that that first piece for me is the is so important, and to have to have a mechanism for people who don't already have the wealth can actually access it, to start to start company. I think that's the that's the most important part, I think.

Louise Warme  38:30  
I'll comment on the IP side, which, which has been an interesting debate over the years. I think there are three To my knowledge, there are three countries in Europe who do it. Sweden has been very successful with the model, Israel has been very successful with the model. And Italy who has not stood out, despite having the same model. So obviously, it takes more components to succeed. But a sense of ownership could definitely be the people who is then in the other ring corner, they say but scientists want to be scientists, then all the innovations just get stuck because there's no one owning and driving it. So I think time will tell what little works better. But it's an interesting debate and personally find it very interesting to follow. Yeah.

Scott Pantel  39:25  
All right. Maybe final remark, Joseph to summarize. 

Josep Ll. Sanfeliu  39:29  
And well. It's good to be closing today. These days of Barcelona. I think that we are aiming to build this industry, at least in Barcelona stronger. So we join you datapoint, massively European companies coming you know, high emerging companies that have the capacity to raise money, raise the attention of the markets and more importantly, make their projects go into hospitals and treat patients and take care of us right So it's been a pleasure to be here joining you. I'm a local guy. So it's like an honor to have you all guys here. And if you want the full thing go cardless Carlos and Luis, Thank you and enjoy the rest of the session. 

Scott Pantel  40:14  
Thank you very much. What a way to end to end the day. Thank you for letting us into your home. Thank you